EU and Brexit

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Re: EU and Brexit

#951 Post by nero » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:22 pm

chijohnaok wrote: ...
Many quotes-
...
Trump calls facts as lies and press the enemy of the people. Pretty Hitlerish...
Trump can calls facts as lies (or lies as facts), but the press in the United States has the ability to counter that by publishing their side of it (or the facts).
Last time I checked, their was no lack of opportunity for the press to do so. :lol:
Pretty Hitlerish
Trump simply criticizes the press.
Juncker on the other hand is the one calling for limits on the press.
Which of the two is more 'Hilterish'?
Juncker calls lies as lies and is right
I believe that under the laws of the EU, and its constituent countries, Junckers has the right to say that.
It's when he implies that there should be limits to the press is where he is wrong IMHO.
Junker is actually calling for action against counter factual propaganda. Not banning the lügenpresse, but having an organ exposing the lies.

Trump is calling press that exposes his lies as enemies of the people.

I expect you see the difference. ;)
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Re: EU and Brexit

#952 Post by chijohnaok » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:16 pm

Juncker: (and by "Juncker", I mean both he personally and the EU Parliament)
I didn't like Brexit.
Brexit would not have passed if lies about Brexit were not spread
I should decide what what is a lie and what is not a lie

There are countries in the EU (UK and Germany are good examples) where people have been arrested and prosecuted for giving their opinions (that may be either 'hateful' or may be a lie).

There are some areas where the government has a role in deciding what may be untruthful (false advertising for drugs and medical treatments, false advertising for investments, etc).
I do not believe that government has a role in deciding what is untruthful when it comes to political speech.

Arresting and prosecuting those who have non-conforming political opinions is, for all intents and purposes, sending the message that if you say something the government decides is hate speech, you will be jailed for doing so. The government deciding what is a lie, and what is not a lie, is little different.

You are advocating for a slippery slope.
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Re: EU and Brexit

#953 Post by nero » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:48 pm

chijohnaok wrote:Juncker: (and by "Juncker", I mean both he personally and the EU Parliament)
I didn't like Brexit.
Brexit would not have passed if lies about Brexit were not spread
I should decide what what is a lie and what is not a lie

There are countries in the EU (UK and Germany are good examples) where people have been arrested and prosecuted for giving their opinions (that may be either 'hateful' or may be a lie).

There are some areas where the government has a role in deciding what may be untruthful (false advertising for drugs and medical treatments, false advertising for investments, etc).
I do not believe that government has a role in deciding what is untruthful when it comes to political speech.

Arresting and prosecuting those who have non-conforming political opinions is, for all intents and purposes, sending the message that if you say something the government decides is hate speech, you will be jailed for doing so. The government deciding what is a lie, and what is not a lie, is little different.

You are advocating for a slippery slope.
There are indeed people in UK and Germany arrested, prosecuted and sentenced for their opinions, but not only for opinions but breaking law. Or do you think that it was wrong to jail Anjem Chourary and other jihadist imams? The same laws apply to Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon a.k.a Tommy Robinson too.

As for propaganda being effective we know well jihadist terrorism. But then there is the other side too, Timothy McVeigh, Breivik and Dylann Roof. They were also affected by toxic ideology.

As for Germany: Juden raus -> Ali raus.

So it goes.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

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Re: EU and Brexit

#954 Post by Lava » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:11 am

What the fuck is taking you folks so long?

You think all you have to do is vote once and everything is going to take care of itself.

You Brits need to kick May in the arse.
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Re: EU and Brexit

#955 Post by EUBanana » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:14 am

Lava wrote:What the fuck is taking you folks so long?

You think all you have to do is vote once and everything is going to take care of itself.

You Brits need to kick May in the arse.
The British nomenklatura don't want to leave. The stitch up is almost entirely in. Democracy? Fuck it.

May need a lot more than a kick in the arse. Someone dig up Albert Pierrepoint.

Amazingly everything seems to be revolving around the 10 Northern Irish right wing MPs, they are literally the only people anywhere even near the corridors of power who want Brexit, who have told May that they will bring the government down if she does this. If somehow by some freaky political miracle Arlene Foster and co pull the fat out the fire, I will never slag off Northern Ireland again.
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Re: EU and Brexit

#956 Post by Anthropoid » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:53 am

EUBanana wrote:
Lava wrote:What the fuck is taking you folks so long?

You think all you have to do is vote once and everything is going to take care of itself.

You Brits need to kick May in the arse.
The British nomenklatura don't want to leave. The stitch up is almost entirely in. Democracy? Fuck it.

May need a lot more than a kick in the arse. Someone dig up Albert Pierrepoint.

Amazingly everything seems to be revolving around the 10 Northern Irish right wing MPs, they are literally the only people anywhere even near the corridors of power who want Brexit, who have told May that they will bring the government down if she does this. If somehow by some freaky political miracle Arlene Foster and co pull the fat out the fire, I will never slag off Northern Ireland again.
:P . . . history repeats . . .
Last edited by Anthropoid on Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EU and Brexit

#957 Post by nero » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:54 am

EUBanana wrote:
Lava wrote:What the fuck is taking you folks so long?

You think all you have to do is vote once and everything is going to take care of itself.

You Brits need to kick May in the arse.
The British nomenklatura don't want to leave. The stitch up is almost entirely in. Democracy? Fuck it.

May need a lot more than a kick in the arse. Someone dig up Albert Pierrepoint.

Amazingly everything seems to be revolving around the 10 Northern Irish right wing MPs, they are literally the only people anywhere even near the corridors of power who want Brexit, who have told May that they will bring the government down if she does this. If somehow by some freaky political miracle Arlene Foster and co pull the fat out the fire, I will never slag off Northern Ireland again.
Brexit illustrated.

Image

The Brexit Impossibility Maze. :(
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

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Re: EU and Brexit

#958 Post by EUBanana » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:02 pm

Not even that.

The senior civil servant negotiating Brexit - right now pretty much on his own, without political oversight, since May blew up the Brexit Ministry - was the frickin' president of the European Reform Club, agitating for a federal Europe. Just the sort of chap I'd like to see managing this thing on his own without oversight.

It's not like the technocrats don't have a plan. Unfortunately they very much do.
“The gap in EU finances arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and from the financing needs of new priorities need to be clearly acknowledged.” - Mario Monti

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Re: EU and Brexit

#959 Post by nero » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:12 pm

An unfortunate truth with the brexit negotiations is that most of the Brits don't understand what the EU article 50 says.

1) First negotiate the details of the secession:
a) Status of the EU citizens in UK, and the status of UK citizens in EU.
b) Agreement on the bending liabilities in the current EU budget. The divorce bill.
c) The Irish border issue, there is an international treaty to guarantee about frictionless movement over the border. This is the hard point.

2) Negotiate a new relation with EU, if any.

But now May is trying to do both in the same time. This is why Chequers fails.

So the only options are go away with WTO deals, or don't leave.

And as Rob said, the elite don't want to leave. But does hoi polloi want to leave when the facts of leaving are known, 8% decrease in the GDP.

When no deal comes reality, something interesting will happen. First Labour patircide, then parliament votes no. May out and a new emergency government will appear that sends a message to Brussels to get the Mrs. May's letter back.

The other option is another referendum, the peoples vote. But when people see the options, they vote for their best interests, not unicorns and other impossible things.

We are living in interesting times.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

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Re: EU and Brexit

#960 Post by EUBanana » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:29 pm

Oh man, I'm Rob now. :(

20 years of an internet handle, over.

;)

I think the polling is pretty clear. Economics was not and never was the driving motivation for leavers. It's remainers obsessed with GDP. This is why all this peoples vote stuff is so tone deaf, it simply is not addressing the other side. The elite in the UK is no different from anywhere else, you can see across Europe, across the United States, there's a great swathe of the ruling class who are simply completely tone deaf to the concerns of a pretty big (majority? in the UK) slice of the population.

The problem ultimately is political failure, from the guys entrusted with running the country, IMO. It ain't the Brexiteers fault. They aren't running anything, and they are frozen out of everything. A lot of the issues in Europe at least could be resolved by a rather less 'bulldozer' approach to politics. But the moral righteousness is just too intense at the moment. If you look at the supposed 'centrists' in the UK, the liberal elite guys, people like Tony Blair or Lord Adonis - they are the very worst dogmatists, without even an iota of give or compromise in them. That really doesn't strike me as what 'centrist' should really mean, they've just snagged the worst because it's cuddly. You may as well deal with Robespierre as Blair.
“The gap in EU finances arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and from the financing needs of new priorities need to be clearly acknowledged.” - Mario Monti

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