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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:10 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
What when wrong then, the Brits should have taken the Arnhem bridge at ease?


Friction of war. Urquhart delayed the British advance. Helmut Buttlar's squad held up 2 Para long enough for the Germans to detonate the railway bridge. 3 Para stopping in Oosterbeek instead of advancing down Utrechtsweg where they might have bagged both Spindler and Bittrich...

The Arnhem road bridge was ocupied by Germans willing to fight just before Frost got there. Those Germans had met other demoralised German troops streaming out of Arnhem...

Yes and no. There was some confusion with the radios and such. But the root cause was that the landing zones were too far of the objective. There was task to protect the landing zones for glider and the same time to occupy the main target. The classical dilemma, when you try to do everything, you manage to nothing.

A design error, made on assumption that there would be no substantial resistance.

With hindsight the operation would have been 100% success without Arnhem, but then the Arnhem bridge was the main objective. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:32 pm 
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nero wrote:
There was some confusion...


Plenty of confusion on the German side too. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:39 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
There was some confusion...


Plenty of confusion on the German side too. :D

Certainly. Market Garden was to be a surprise attack anyway.

But I think this skeleton tread has no substance left to argue any more. Perhaps it is the time to end this, you can have the final word on the grave. ;)

Kevyet mullat.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Damb, wulfir. Mdiehlio hammers you w/ the neg reps. Ur last 3 reps are neg reps from im. He had to spread around the hate to save up neg points to hit you w/ such a barrage. You're a bug up his ass.

I like both you I think it's funny. Carry on annoying each other, gents. good posts :D

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:33 am 
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Love man, not hate.
Neg rep is a tool. It's like disciplining a child. 'nuff said.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:39 am 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
There was some confusion...


Plenty of confusion on the German side too. :D
Somethings wrong with the repping.

Tried +reping Wulfir and -repping was the only option.

Is someone screwing with the system? a la cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 am 
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Went through Major Tatham Warter's account of the fighting in Arnhem as presented in Peatling's unit history of the British 2nd Bn, The Parachute Regiment - looking for the mention of tanks.

On D-Day (Sunday September 17) the Bn briefly clashed with a single armoured car.

D+1, morning - German attempt to cross the bridge from south to north with armoured cars. 6 pdr A/T guns take out six, PIAT four. (Gräbners death ride)
D+1, afternoon - German attack along the eastern river bank supported by two Mk III tanks (probably some traning unit equipped with obsolete kit). One tank taken out by PIAT, one by 6 pdr.

D+2, midday - three tanks (unknown type) shell house 10 from a position near the river. Two more tanks (unknown type) spotted. PIAT hits scored. Tanks pull out.
D+2, unkown time - Two armoured cars penetrate along the river bank, one lost to PIAT.
D+2, just before dark - a single Tiger tank appear and fire two or three rounds into a row of houses ocupied by the paras (Houses 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6). The then two remaining 6 pdrs could not engage.

D+3, morning, tanks are brought up to help German attack. Type and number not given. No more PIAT bombs left.
D+3, day - Frost and Crawley wounded T-Warter in command of 2 Bn. Positions ocupied around Houses 1-6, and nearby gardens. Rubble and burning houses such that enemy tanks could inflict little damage. XXX Corps to attack south side of river at 1700 hours. Paratroopers confident of being able to hold - also of being able to hold out throughout the following day should XXX Corps attack be delayed.
D+3, night - continued German preassure. 2nd Bn dispersed. Remnants attempt to escape.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:31 am 
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Looked through my copy of Wilkingsson's The Gunners at Arnhem in search of the mention of tanks. The focus is on the employment of the airborne 75mm howitzers, the forward observers and the 6 pdr and 17 pdr at-guns that belonged to the Royal Artillery and was brought in with the British airborne. (There were some AT-guns that belonged to airborne units, like the the 1st Airborne Brigade or the Poles that are not covered.) It also covers some of the support given by XXX. Corps artillery units when these got in range.

Older models are mentioned first. Tiger tanks appear at the end of the third day...


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:13 pm 
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That was a fantastic scene in the movie....the recon unit trying to cross the bridge. The PIAT charges were incredibly short range. You could see the thing arcing down within a few meters....I presume that was accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:50 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
That was a fantastic scene in the movie....


Yeah - the movie, I wonder if it is possible to underestimate the impact Ryan's book and the movie based on that book has on shaping people's view of the battle. IIRC Cornelius Ryan left a huge amount of material about the battle when he died. Basically nobody has amassed an archive this big about Market Garden...

How to operate the PIAT I guess is correct. But EuB's earlier quote in this thread - "BRING UP THE PIAT" - is a line from the movie that suggests the British paratroopers at Arnhem bridge had one single PIAT. The movie does not show any of the anti-tank guns present at Arnhem which played a significant role in the destruction of Gräbners charge, nor does it show the artillery forward observers attached to Frost who had established radio comms on their gunner set (something that is mentioned in the movie Theirs is the Glory).


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