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 Post subject: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:51 am 
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Is there an unmodded CRPG game that makes these outfits practical, yes.

TES: Morrowind has an http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unarmored armor skill. With 'Unarmored'
the PC gets armored rating of 65 at 100 skill, and even to 260 armor rating when 'Fortifed' to 200 skill.

ADDIT
http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17979 for some interesting chit chat.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:09 am 
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Continuing with 'unarmored' and Morrowind.

Unarmored has drawbacks, like if you strip down completely you'll be constantly told to get some clothes, you can stop this by wearing anything, even a ring .

That said there's a 'Disposition' check with NPCs, Unarmored=Barbarian=civilized NPCs wary of you, makes sense but if you wore one item like 'Extravagant ring' would that correct the disposition back to normal? Unsure.

No complaint, after all your a Conan wannabee, how would you feel if Conan walked into your shop and demanded you show him your goodies :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Then there is


They are a pain, take the 'Zhentarim Field Agent', great build, but it uses Fighter, Rogue, and Shadow Dancer in it''s build ... I want to use Ranger instead of Fighter, Why? Because I like Rangers, especially strength Rangers like Aragorn (not Legolas).

To do that calls for major changes in the build before starting the game.

In Morrowind or Darkland (no classes) no problem.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:51 am 
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Hard 'Classes' are too restrictive in both CRPGs and TRPGs.

The only benefit they give is in narrowing down all the choices. Which makes character creation faster, and precludes the need for a noobie player to learn all the skills, abilities, etc in order to create an informed character. At the expense of customization and variety.

In other words, it dumbs it down to make the pre-game prep go faster, and require less reading.

I can see why it's often used, because there are many people who don't like too much rules "crunch", nor reading it. I'm not one of those lightweights, but I see some of them bitching fairly often about needing to know too much 'under the hood' stuff (especially regarding tabletops). So there is obviously an audience for such restrictive methods.

:ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:46 am 
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The only reason for character classes is gameplay, to improve it by abstracting and limiting choices players can make.

For instance saying that a wizard can't wear plate armor and walk around with a pollaxe is good for balancing the game. In real-life the balancing factors are always associated with cost and availability.

In games if we use the same balancing mechanism it means that we throw a dice and one of the players is a member of warrior elite and has enough money to buy full plate. Nice for him, fucked up for everyone else regarding that he's now impervious against blades and most projectiles and highly resistant to everything else. While also having spells and having a weapon that works well against armor and essentially everything else.

What, yes, your thief with two daggers is completely useless in combat. Sorry but he is, even a peasant with a pitchfork has the advantage on him, nevermind anyone with a ranged weapon or any non-dagger weapon..

So, in practice we're giving players more options by limiting their options. Since your wizard can't have plate mail, since things are unrealistic we can build a gameplay system with made up character classes where each of the classes is useful because I the designer have spent years perfecting every last damn value of every action and item to that end.


So I personally don't mind the RPG conventions. They're created to allow silly things like wielding two daggers in combat while being useful for the party even in combat terms. It means everyone can have a unique and different character and still contribute by being a valuable member - so much so that the challenges can be built upon the team being required to utilize their synergy to full in order to triumph.

Personally my own designs try to be more realistic, as a result the experience is different. I am working on gameplay systems that don't force there to be a stupid nonexistent and unrealistic weakness on a weapon such as pollaxe or greatsword. I'm trying to build systems where the cost and availability are the balancing factors and where the roleplaying doesn't come from everyone being on same standing but exactly from the choices you need to make because not everyone is on the same line and because different things are easier or harder to replace - and from the knowledge that actions have consequences. I don't believe that a CRPG experience needs to be one where the party triumphs all obstacles without losing a single person.

I can find alternate ways to create more realistic classes that feel more natural and authentic to a medieval setting or so.


Because, while I don't mind the mainstream conventions, I do find that they sort of hurt my immersion. Because I've studied these things and many of the conventions feel too abstract, too silly, and frankly as if someone pulled them out of his ass, at worst ending up with the feeling of being completely redundant.

But that is because I don't view RPG as metagame competition. I view RPG as roleplaying. I never cared much for a CrPG where the roleplaying amounted to maximizing some stat and trying to climb some metagame ladder. And these fucking competitive ladders are frankly the only reason you'd need such rigorous balancing in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:51 am 
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abradley wrote:


Is there an unmodded CRPG game that makes these outfits practical, yes.

TES: Morrowind has an http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unarmored armor skill. With 'Unarmored'
the PC gets armored rating of 65 at 100 skill, and even to 260 armor rating when 'Fortifed' to 200 skill.

ADDIT
http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17979 for some interesting chit chat.


I really don't understand what the fuck is this "unarmored skill".

I mean, it's a pure 100% gaming convention that has no real-life analogy.

Any evasion skill that you may have applies the same whether you are naked or have a light armor on. It even works the same when you have heavy armor on and you can condition yourself so that the same evasion skills work with minimal penalties from restricted movements and increased fatigue from the heavier armor. Any 'armor' skill is an addition to evasion that focuses on applying evasion only to protect the weak spots while not even bothering to provide the strong parts. It is part of skill in the art not to parry a sword attack to the front of your cuirass. Instead of parrying it you can ignore it and counterattack, ending up in 'double hit' except you will hit the enemy in a vulnerable spot on his armor while he hits you in the strongest part to no effect.

As such evasive skills are all more or less connected and have synergy between them and heavily depend on reflexes and perception, even situational awareness.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
The only reason for character classes is gameplay, to improve it by abstracting and limiting choices players can make.

For instance saying that a wizard can't wear plate armor and walk around with a pollaxe is good for balancing the game. In real-life the balancing factors are always associated with cost and availability.




Armor restrictions, and other similar rules, aren't necessarily tied to Classes. Classless open systems also have such things. In those cases, they're tied to the special ability or whatever grants the capability to cast. Or there is a specific rule that punishes the combination in some way, universally.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:42 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
The only reason for character classes is gameplay, to improve it by abstracting and limiting choices players can make.

For instance saying that a wizard can't wear plate armor and walk around with a pollaxe is good for balancing the game. In real-life the balancing factors are always associated with cost and availability.




Armor restrictions, and other similar rules, aren't necessarily tied to Classes. Classless open systems also have such things. In those cases, they're tied to the special ability or whatever grants the capability to cast. Or there is a specific rule that punishes the combination in some way, universally.


Yup. As opposed to magic being rare thing where you are born with a random innate capacity for it and to master it requires not just right genes but spending decades in magic academy almost anyone can simply become a combat mage but can't wear armor for doing so.

Real-life:
Image
The very tactic of caracole could be considered "exploitation" and "unsportsmanship" and your whole cavalry regiment could get banned from joining any battles ever again.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Of the various RPG magic systems..

I prefer the tabletop Warhammer Fantasy RPG style of magic, from the 3rd edition (which is based off 2nd edition).

Basically, the 'Winds Of Chaos' are where this power comes from. Sweeping across The Old World in ebb & flow. It basically comes from the birth of the Chaos gods, or when they arrived in the setting. Kinda like an oft-unseen Warp Wind for those more familiar with WH40k.

There are two cool things about it:

1) The power available at any one moment tends to change, so the caster must often use his skill to harness more, in order to power bigger spells. "Channeling" power. There are no set 'daily limits' of spells you have available; it's all resource risk-reward gambling when you choose to use it. Makes it more interesting IMO. But due to it's chaotic nature, it can also be dangerous if he loses control of it before the spell is done. Which can lead to feedback damage or ...

2) Casting mishaps. This is a misfire that results in Bad Stuff™. Maybe your caster is paralyzed for a short time. Maybe he causes an explosion in the midst of his party. Or some of the most severe and interesting types - mutating. Sticking with the chaos origin theme.. some nasty shit can happen, such as the mage growing an extra eye or appendage. Or a damn tentacle. In the setting, such things would have to be hidden else an Inquisitor or pack of torch-wielding peasants will attempt to burn you. You could even accidentally open a gate, releasing an unbound & hostile demon nearby. :) Makes spellcasting die rolls, and choosing how much power to channel, very.... engaging. :twisted:

Compared to crap such as "Vancian magic" where you have your Spells Per Day, which are simply forgotten once used and must be replenished after a long sleep each day. Blah. Dull. More like managing a budget than handling dangerous & awe-inspiring forces. :?

Magic point systems are just a more flexible version of Vancian. Also rather 'meh', but at least it's an improvement.

No.. I like the dangerous risk-taking kind. More RPGs should use it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:37 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Of the various RPG magic systems..

I prefer the tabletop Warhammer Fantasy RPG style of magic, from the 3rd edition (which is based off 2nd edition).

Basically, the 'Winds Of Chaos' are where this power comes from. Sweeping across The Old World in ebb & flow. It basically comes from the birth of the Chaos gods, or when they arrived in the setting. Kinda like an oft-unseen Warp Wind for those more familiar with WH40k.

There are two cool things about it:

1) The power available at any one moment tends to change, so the caster must often use his skill to harness more, in order to power bigger spells. "Channeling" power. There are no set 'daily limits' of spells you have available; it's all resource risk-reward gambling when you choose to use it. Makes it more interesting IMO. But due to it's chaotic nature, it can also be dangerous if he loses control of it before the spell is done. Which can lead to feedback damage or ...

2) Casting mishaps. This is a misfire that results in Bad Stuff™. Maybe your caster is paralyzed for a short time. Maybe he causes an explosion in the midst of his party. Or some of the most severe and interesting types - mutating. Sticking with the chaos origin theme.. some nasty shit can happen, such as the mage growing an extra eye or appendage. Or a damn tentacle. In the setting, such things would have to be hidden else an Inquisitor or pack of torch-wielding peasants will attempt to burn you. You could even accidentally open a gate, releasing an unbound & hostile demon nearby. :) Makes spellcasting die rolls, and choosing how much power to channel, very.... engaging. :twisted:

Compared to crap such as "Vancian magic" where you have your Spells Per Day, which are simply forgotten once used and must be replenished after a long sleep each day. Blah. Dull. More like managing a budget than handling dangerous & awe-inspiring forces. :?

Magic point systems are just a more flexible version of Vancian. Also rather 'meh', but at least it's an improvement.

No.. I like the dangerous risk-taking kind. More RPGs should use it. :)


While I like reading the books, I'm not 100% on board with Horus Heresy / 40k universe. It has too much of that feeling that it was started out as a big fat joke and then later tried to be made serious. It's a big thing, there's a lot of great stuff about it but I'm constantly harassed by the misinterpretations of warp travel. I have to constantly consciously replace warp with something else such as 'sub-/hyperspace', 'translating into tachyonic particles' etc. because then the stuff actually makes any sense to begin with.

A passage "the ship entered warp, leaving material existence and as it entered the immaterium"... I absolutely must constantly remind that they mean something else with warp than warp travel or warping of space.

Then again I'm the first to admit that I am a bit neurotic with these terms.



On topic, I agree with you, if you're going to have a magic system make it 'hard magic'. Don't just make mages some sort of archer with 5 hunting bolts, 3 AP bolts, 4 shearing bolts and two bottles of antiseptic healing paste. Essentially, why do you even need to call it magic then when the character is simply an archer with a different kind of projectile caster.

The absolute best part about GW's stuff is the mechanics. They have some great mechanics and interesting gameplay. As a professional designer I really appreciate their work and look up to their game design department. Real sense of meaningful choices - and that's really what games are all about. Not making railroads but meaningful crossroads. Not as much pointless grinding and micromanagement as actual streamlined gameplay and meaningful content.

In the Age of Sigmar world I hear they encourage players to modify the rules and create their own content, such as heroic characters. Also, fun stuff like being able to take different sized forces and have different victory goals so both players are still challenged fully despite force disparity.


Personally, my design philosophy would ideally be about freedom, mimicking real world. To keep things interesting with your armor wearing spell caster with a big sword - just use bigger stacks of enemies and more special enemies, really. Have challenges that are difficult and if you're really mean you can force the character to crawl through a hole in a wall so all of the armor won't fit through or even be undercover or caught in bed when he's not wearing the armor.

There's no reason to be restrained by not using imagination when you can do whatever you can imagine.

By the way Loremaster in Warhammer is a High Elf mage character who has full armor, is a swordmaster but also has studied arcane magic. He has a two handed sword and can cast attack spells when he lets go of the sword with one hand.

There aren't a lot of them and while they're powerful they're not invincible. And remember the rule that you can't use bows or have time to prepare spells when in HTH combat and parrying attacks. You can simply swamp such a character with fast and cheap shit.

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