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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
{Snip}

I really don't understand what the fuck is this "unarmored skill".

I mean, it's a pure 100% gaming convention that has no real-life analogy.

Any evasion skill that you may have applies the same whether you are naked or have a light armor on. It even works the same when you have heavy armor on and you can condition yourself so that the same evasion skills work with minimal penalties from restricted movements and increased fatigue from the heavier armor. Any 'armor' skill is an addition to evasion that focuses on applying evasion only to protect the weak spots while not even bothering to provide the strong parts. It is part of skill in the art not to parry a sword attack to the front of your cuirass. Instead of parrying it you can ignore it and counterattack, ending up in 'double hit' except you will hit the enemy in a vulnerable spot on his armor while he hits you in the strongest part to no effect.

As such evasive skills are all more or less connected and have synergy between them and heavily depend on reflexes and perception, even situational awareness.
Hmmm, 'pure gaming convention that has no real life analogy.' I'd guess 'Unarmored' has been around since long before the first armor.

And as for the evasive skills being the same naked or with light armor, are you saying light armor restricts a person the same as wearing a Judo Judogi and which light armor are you referring to,

Quote:
Armor
Armor Style
Complete Sets
Nordic Fur Armor 5 550
Netch Leather Armor 5 550
Chitin Armor 10 1100
4 more rows
Morrowind:Light Armor - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Light_Armor
Notes[edit]

When mastered, unarmored gives an armor rating of 65. This is significantly less than what equal skill in light, medium or heavy armor can give while wearing a good set of armor. You don't need to worry about encumbrance or armor condition, but since armor can be worn with clothes (except for gloves and shoes), you will have less equipment available for enchanting. All in all, this is not the greatest skill for a power gamer, but remains useful as backup or for someone who likes to stay partially naked. Have used Unarmored in the opening portion of the game, very effective at lower levels if your careful. Most PC's start with 10 points of Unarmored plus peasant shirt, pants, and sandals. With those plus a Long sword my PC treks to Balmora collecting flowers and mushrooms.

Besides I brought up the Morrowind Unarmored to show how adaptable the system is, it can even have a Conan type PC, not sure I'd want to play him.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:31 am 
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Well... I also like open magic systems. But they're about as rare as the dangerous gamble type I mentioned above.

Of tabletops, I only know of a few which have rather loose on-the-fly mechanics which give you much leeway in effects:

Ars Magica (the first I remember doing so, been around since late 80s)
Mage: The Awakening/The Ascension (World of Darkness system.. admits it took inspiration from Ars Magica)
All For One: Regime Diabolique and Desolation (Ubiquity system games. Fairly simple, most GM judgement required)

This type definitely requires more GM workload, however. Although they get easier with use, as with most anything.


Shadowrun has a decent mix of fatigue/health loss potential, and scalable effects, in it's casting rolls. Probably closest to the WFRP style. But, as with everything Shadowrun mechanics-wise, there is all kinds of fiddly bits, calculations, and extra stuff that can be involved. Lotsa crunchy details.. which can be both good and bad.





I just wish computer RPGs would implement some of the other interesting types present in some tabletops. The PC games all seem to only use a Vancian or Magic Point (aka "mana") system. :|

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:49 pm 
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abradley wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
{Snip}

I really don't understand what the fuck is this "unarmored skill".

I mean, it's a pure 100% gaming convention that has no real-life analogy.

Any evasion skill that you may have applies the same whether you are naked or have a light armor on. It even works the same when you have heavy armor on and you can condition yourself so that the same evasion skills work with minimal penalties from restricted movements and increased fatigue from the heavier armor. Any 'armor' skill is an addition to evasion that focuses on applying evasion only to protect the weak spots while not even bothering to provide the strong parts. It is part of skill in the art not to parry a sword attack to the front of your cuirass. Instead of parrying it you can ignore it and counterattack, ending up in 'double hit' except you will hit the enemy in a vulnerable spot on his armor while he hits you in the strongest part to no effect.

As such evasive skills are all more or less connected and have synergy between them and heavily depend on reflexes and perception, even situational awareness.
Hmmm, 'pure gaming convention that has no real life analogy.' I'd guess 'Unarmored' has been around since long before the first armor.

And as for the evasive skills being the same naked or with light armor, are you saying light armor restricts a person the same as wearing a Judo Judogi and which light armor are you referring to,

Quote:
Armor
Armor Style
Complete Sets
Nordic Fur Armor 5 550
Netch Leather Armor 5 550
Chitin Armor 10 1100
4 more rows
Morrowind:Light Armor - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Light_Armor
Notes[edit]

When mastered, unarmored gives an armor rating of 65. This is significantly less than what equal skill in light, medium or heavy armor can give while wearing a good set of armor. You don't need to worry about encumbrance or armor condition, but since armor can be worn with clothes (except for gloves and shoes), you will have less equipment available for enchanting. All in all, this is not the greatest skill for a power gamer, but remains useful as backup or for someone who likes to stay partially naked. Have used Unarmored in the opening portion of the game, very effective at lower levels if your careful. Most PC's start with 10 points of Unarmored plus peasant shirt, pants, and sandals. With those plus a Long sword my PC treks to Balmora collecting flowers and mushrooms.

Besides I brought up the Morrowind Unarmored to show how adaptable the system is, it can even have a Conan type PC, not sure I'd want to play him.


Typically the systems used are very strict and 'gamey'. For instance a person who is really good with two handed swords is going to receive benefits to one handed swords as well, especially the arming sword type and similar if not as much to more pure thrusting swords. What is interesting is that being good with two handed sword doesn't just translate to many one handed swords but also to sticks such as quarterstaff - you can do everything with a quarterstaff that you can do with a two handed sword but the latter has less options such as it won't cut and isn't as flexible in parrying due to not being steel.

Light armor is of course very wide concept and the term is often used in different ways, from the protection it offers to the constraint and weight it places on it's wearer.

It is important to note that full plate for example isn't even nearly the heaviest armor that could be fielded. Full plate itself is typically designed as 'the lightest possible armor that offers reasonable or good protection to whole body'. Even with full plate the mobility and lack of constraint are more important than best possible protection. For any such armor the protection could be quickly increased considerably by adding an extra millimeter here and there at the cost of only a little mobility and weight. The armor is designed so that it doesn't constrain you in battle or does so as little as possible because 'not getting hit is still the best armor there is'. If you get hit because you're slow and cumbersome then the armor has lost all it's purpose - there's always going to be some weapon that can still knock you over or kill you straight. Look at polearms, the only thing holding their weight back is the expected agility of the opponent. The slower the opponent the heavier axe, pick or hammer you can attach at the end of a polearm (or have a design that has them all).

What are commonly called light armor vary considerably from leather outfits with few steel pieces and knobs here and there, from armor that are essentially just leather jackets to reinforced leather, linen or wool armor featuring tiny pieces of armor that don't in any way constrain and in lighter versions merely add a few extra kilograms due to the sparse distribution of tactically placed protection. From these we can go all the way to things like 14th century brigandines that some could still call light armor:

Image

These would be standard issue for light infantry such as archers. They're composed of typically overlapping sheets of steel forming a gapless protection around torso and shoulders and upper arms, rarely extending to elbow. You get hot faster while wearing one and on long distance run your time is going to be hit but one on one fencing, archery etc. are not impacted. While you feel that you have steel sheets around you the body part actually bends with your torso, allowing for great mobility considering the amount of protection you have.

The more your armor restricts your movements the more you need 'type training' for it. For instance if you can't take Ox Guard on the right side when you're right handed it is good to know of this before putting your life on the line and learning to fight in a way where you learn to compensate for any guards you cannot assume. The thing with Ox Guard is that as a person wearing plate the only reason you'd want to actually wield something like a longsword is if you want to use it against primarily unarmored opponents - otherwise you'd have brought a greatsword or a polearm in which case you wouldn't use that guard. And while with some modern sparring gear Ox is impossible on the right side it doesn't mean that your personally fitted plate armor wouldn't allow it.

Hence why I say that if you want armor that doesn't constrain you at all you can take a light armor that doesn't constrain you at all. If you want the best available protection while sacrificing nothing that you need in combat you can go for full plate. You can still do cartwheels and such but with plate armor you'll definitely need some time getting used to it but the biggest thing to learn is that with plate armor the rules are different - you don't need to parry or care about someone throwing a hew attack with a sword against your cuirass or torso plate - you can completely ignore it but you need to be aware of attacks aiming to wrench into your armpits and so. So the skill to fight with plate is not as much about combat being different - it is about being able to leverage your armor advantage to it's maximum and to know how your enemy can attempt to attack you (that makes sense) and only to defend against such attempts.



Initially when you add things like steel mittens and such there will be more weight to lift while using a weapon and holding a high guard. If your muscle strength isn't there yet you can simply build it up a little bit so that to maintain such a guard isn't over stretching those weak muscles but simply a tiny portion of the full capacity of the muscles. Thus for someone with the upper body strength it makes little difference if there's some extra weight or not. And as an added benefit having extra strength means it will take both longer for you to wear down and you will win more binds and crush through more enemy parries and blocks, not forgetting that you'll do more damage once you hit.

This does not mean that you should go the buffalo route. It simply means that sufficient upper body strength is vital for a warrior. The same as with rifles. If you're too feeble it will already feel like your overtaxing your muscles trying to take aim while standing, merely carrying the rifle around. After you've conditioned yourself to it and built the strength handling a rifle becomes a breeze, even for long durations.


The myth about slow turtle armors needs to die.

Though I'll give you this - for complete "didn't hurt / hurt" evaluation unarmored can make sense. Unarmored - you need to completely evade each and every hit. With armor you can let some blows hit intentionally.
Even so the ability to evade and dodge should carry over to armor as well. Personally I'd put strength and endurance based stamina penalties on heavier armor.


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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:57 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Well... I also like open magic systems. But they're about as rare as the dangerous gamble type I mentioned above.

Of tabletops, I only know of a few which have rather loose on-the-fly mechanics which give you much leeway in effects:

Ars Magica (the first I remember doing so, been around since late 80s)
Mage: The Awakening/The Ascension (World of Darkness system.. admits it took inspiration from Ars Magica)
All For One: Regime Diabolique and Desolation (Ubiquity system games. Fairly simple, most GM judgement required)

This type definitely requires more GM workload, however. Although they get easier with use, as with most anything.


Shadowrun has a decent mix of fatigue/health loss potential, and scalable effects, in it's casting rolls. Probably closest to the WFRP style. But, as with everything Shadowrun mechanics-wise, there is all kinds of fiddly bits, calculations, and extra stuff that can be involved. Lotsa crunchy details.. which can be both good and bad.





I just wish computer RPGs would implement some of the other interesting types present in some tabletops. The PC games all seem to only use a Vancian or Magic Point (aka "mana") system. :|


The apathy of games industry is why I saw I had to make it my business.

Then I quickly learned that it's easier said than done. It's one thing to build up the skills to be able to develop a game from pre-production to release and post release support.

It is a whole another thing to pull 250,000$ out of your ass for a business venture. The banks will only loan me 50,000€ but the interest is 23%. Which means I'd probably get a cheaper loan from some MC such as Hell's Angels or Bandidos now that Cannonballs have disbanded.

Imo when MC's offer better credit than banks.. Ah, what the fuck. It means that it ain't gonna happen.

So, slugging it away at bootstrap budget either means that I'm going to hang myself one day from mine or release something I feel happy with, whichever comes first.

Meanwhile I've learned to try and not stress about it. These things take time, one does not simply enter such an expensive industry and change how things are done. Might as well walk up to Hollywood and try to make them stop being so anti-military and anti-American.



Hard magic system can be very free - the definition of 'hard' means that the rules are strict, the opposite of 'soft' magic is essentially Harry Potter. Oh shit, I wish we could escape the skeletons somehow across this river. Hey, I know, I can make a 'bridge spell'! Nice! Hey, I know, it only lasts exactly for as long as it takes for the hero party to cross it!

Hard magic also tends to have that resource aspect. Is it soul, pain or some resource such as fairy dust that you need to spend or does it involve a risk of opening a warp portal when you use it, the rules are defined and knowable as opposed to McGuffin.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
{Snip}


The myth about slow turtle armors needs to die.

Though I'll give you this - for complete "didn't hurt / hurt" evaluation unarmored can make sense. Unarmored - you need to completely evade each and every hit. With armor you can let some blows hit intentionally.
Even so the ability to evade and dodge should carry over to armor as well. Personally I'd put strength and endurance based stamina penalties on heavier armor.

{Snip}
Well, yes and no. Your 'Life of Brian' video does point out that a NPC with heavy armor is prone to exhaustion when running around in heavy armor. But that was a movie, yes.

Let take an example from a Fantasy realtime CRPG (Morrowind); My PC (Packrat)was wandering in his normal wear Image, Dark Brotherhood light armor w/ with a Silver Dagger when he chanced on: Ashalmawia is a shrine to Molag Bal just east of Ald Velothi and south-southwest of Khuul. The shrine consists of two large areas: the Shrine and the Sunken Vaults. Also, there are three quests that will bring you to this shrine. The enemies within are two mages and two warriors. The emerald on the altar is cursed., in the shrine are 4 well armored enemies, one, the last, wearing Ebony Armor Image minus helmet, is in the sunken vault armed with a slow daedric war axe. Ebony is the strongest armor in the game.

Packrat killed the first three by rushing in and daggering them to death. Then it was time for Packrat's battle against the heaviest armored and weaponed enemy.

Gordol knew he was coming and had plenty of spells so Packrat stayed far enough away to dodge Gordol's spells until it seemed he'd exhausted them ... then Packrat rushed in and daggered him to death.

How is that possible? The dagger is low damage but twice as fast as the war axe and Packrat was like a fighter jabbing away so his opponent can't get time to reply. Packrat can't afford a miss, he's got to get close and stay there until Gordol's death.

What's that got to do with 'Unarmored', the same tactic can work 'Unarmored'. None of the 4 bad guys were given a chance to strike back.

One strike from Gordol's Battleaxe would have floored Packrat and would have been Packrat hamburger time...

A loose example from history is the Battle of Agincourt, when the French knights went down the English archers swarmed and daggered them. IIRC Common in Middle battles.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:46 pm 
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Another thing I am against and Morrowind doesn't have this problem.

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:42 am 
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abradley wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
{Snip}


The myth about slow turtle armors needs to die.

Though I'll give you this - for complete "didn't hurt / hurt" evaluation unarmored can make sense. Unarmored - you need to completely evade each and every hit. With armor you can let some blows hit intentionally.
Even so the ability to evade and dodge should carry over to armor as well. Personally I'd put strength and endurance based stamina penalties on heavier armor.

{Snip}
Well, yes and no. Your 'Life of Brian' video does point out that a NPC with heavy armor is prone to exhaustion when running around in heavy armor. But that was a movie, yes.

Let take an example from a Fantasy realtime CRPG (Morrowind); My PC (Packrat)was wandering in his normal wear
Image, Dark Brotherhood light armor w/ with a Silver Dagger when he chanced on: Ashalmawia is a shrine to Molag Bal just east of Ald Velothi and south-southwest of Khuul. The shrine consists of two large areas: the Shrine and the Sunken Vaults. Also, there are three quests that will bring you to this shrine. The enemies within are two mages and two warriors. The emerald on the altar is cursed., in the shrine are 4 well armored enemies, one, the last, wearing Ebony Armor
Image minus helmet, is in the sunken vault armed with a slow daedric war axe. Ebony is the strongest armor in the game.

Packrat killed the first three by rushing in and daggering them to death. Then it was time for Packrat's battle against the heaviest armored and weaponed enemy.

Gordol knew he was coming and had plenty of spells so Packrat stayed far enough away to dodge Gordol's spells until it seemed he'd exhausted them ... then Packrat rushed in and daggered him to death.

How is that possible? The dagger is low damage but twice as fast as the war axe and Packrat was like a fighter jabbing away so his opponent can't get time to reply. Packrat can't afford a miss, he's got to get close and stay there until Gordol's death.

What's that got to do with 'Unarmored', the same tactic can work 'Unarmored'. None of the 4 bad guys were given a chance to strike back.

One strike from Gordol's Battleaxe would have floored Packrat and would have been Packrat hamburger time...

A loose example from history is the Battle of Agincourt, when the French knights went down the English archers swarmed and daggered them. IIRC Common in Middle battles.


Except Battle of Agincourt is an excellent case for the quality of plate armor, why? Despite being bogged down in mud, having their mounts shot from under them and having their charge turn from a hammer to a slow pouring of tiny bands of knights, even despite all of this the English amounted to 1,500 knights captured. Henry V was so worried about such a large number of knights within his camp that he decided to rather execute the prisoners rather than risk having this large number of prisoner escape in the middle of his camp at night.

It is estimated on average that the French had 1,200 mounted knights and many more unmounted knights and 10,000 men-at-arms, facing 7,000 longbowmen and 1,500 men-at-arms.

To me if there were three things that we learned from Agincourt they are
- The importance of battlefield discipline (don't charge into the rear of your own archers while they are trying to deal with enemy's)
- Cavalry shouldn't in ideal terrain be used to charge prepared enemy positions head on, much less in muddy terrain. Knights and men-at-arms on foot don't much appreciate deep mud either.
- Despite all these things the French knights reached the English lines and made battle with the men-at-arms, showcasing the protection offered by their plate as they could still push through the hail of arrows and even through point blank enfilade. Many of the accounts from the battle note circumstances where knights were instantly killed by arrows such as being hit from side to the edge of the visor or a knight having the visor up and being hit in the face. Also many died as their mounts perished under the volleys.

Essentially, the French were charging into a bottle through the narrow bottleneck that itself was mud. This shows the quality of Henry V as a general.
Image
Map of the battle

Image
1915 painting of Henry V

You have been watching too much Hystery Channel if you think it was a case of light infantry defeating heavily armed knights. This is a common nationalistic and chauvinistic depiction of the battle portrayed in sources such as Hystery Channel. The English archers themselves had armor, their positions had sharpened spikes in front of them and were protected on sides by woods and in addition they had their own plated heavy infantry in the form of men-at-arms to deal with the French knights.



From which we are getting to the game case.

Dagger against full plate? While it exists within the realm of possibilities that a dagger wielding fighter in light armor could triumph against a fully plated opponent wielding a battleaxe, it is incredibly likely unless there is massive gap in skill between the two and the armored fighter really has no clue.

+ Armored fighter's armor cannot be penetrated anywhere by the dagger
+ There are only a couple of gaps in the armor that are relatively easy to defend while the light armor is all over vulnerable to the battleaxe
+ Battleaxe is typically 1 to 1.5 meters tall, averaging around 1.2 meters and weighing around 2.5kg
+ Typical dagger is 50cm and weighs 500g. It is faster but lacks reach which makes it that much more difficult to attack the few hard to reach openings in the armor
+ Many plate armor can carry extra pieces to protect the gaps because why not
+++ Mail is often worn under the armor in addition to gambeson, meaning you reach a gap there's still a mail under there and under that there's a gambeson
+ Battleaxe is not that slow, you don't swing it like in Hollywood movies, the angular momentum can be redirected for fast sequences of attack, while not as fast as dagger the dagger wielder won't have time to close in
+ If you close in on a person in full armor, a little too close for his primary weapon he either grabs a shorter secondary weapon or starts to grapple with you. Punches, kicks and throws all come by instinct
- The lighter equipped person can run long distance faster

Outside of movies and games that try to recreate those movie moments the dagger wielding lightly armored person has no advantages except when it comes to fleeing - he is able to flee faster and run further. The whole point of skirmishers is to utilize this - to annoy the hell out of the heavier enemy so they would lose their discipline and do what the French did at Agincourt, something very stupid, fall into your trap, charge in your kill zone piecemeal without any plan.

Don't take my word for it, go to your nearest HEMA club and try it out.

Hint: you have a lot of leg. As you're trying to close in the opponent can take a swing at your front leg and if you don't try to parry it by reaching down you'll lose the leg, if you parry down it opens further possibilities. In general reach is incredibly important for weapons. That is why people tended to carry rapiers and not daggers for dueling.
The problem with trying it out is that you need good protection from ankles to head or the guy with the longer weapon cannot attack you safely. And I've seen too many videos where the clowns don't have any leg protection and no proper torso protection and the guy with the longer stick has to hold it back while the daggers don't need to be held back at all, making for a poor premise for testing the weapons against each other.

Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: CRPGING.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:44 am 
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And no, it was not common in Medieval battles for light infantry to swarm knights and dagger them. The opposite did happen a lot, the knights and men-at-arms or other heavy infantry absolutely butchering light infantry.

Quote:
Then they had to walk a few hundred yards through thick mud, a press of comrades and wearing armour weighing 50–60 pounds (23–27 kg), gathering sticky clay all the way. Increasingly they had to walk around or over fallen comrades.[49]


Miniature from Vigiles du roi Charles VII. The battle of Azincourt 1415.
The surviving French men-at-arms reached the front of the English line and pushed it back, with the longbowmen on the flanks continuing to shoot at point-blank range. When the archers ran out of arrows, they dropped their bows and using hatchets, swords and the mallets they had used to drive their stakes in, attacked the now disordered, fatigued and wounded French men-at-arms massed in front of them. The French could not cope with the thousands of lightly armoured longbowmen assailants (who were much less hindered by the mud and weight of their armour) combined with the English men-at-arms. The impact of thousands of arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers meant the French men-at-arms could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line.[50] The exhausted French men-at-arms are described as being knocked to the ground by the English and then unable to get back up.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Normally getting up in your plate mail is no big deal, however it says in the sources they were too tired to even lift their weapons. To take this for 'standard battle' would be outrageous.

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