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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:15 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
The characters are funny. Not exactly PG or PC.

Not very flattering toward women either.


SSOOOOO honest though!

The game annoys the shit out of me, literally like almost to the point of ragequit. But then it is so good too . . .

Its like that incredibly hot, sexy girlfriend, who works you up into a lather, then starts a fight and won't put out, and then makes you do something you hate like take her shopping, but then once you are beaten down and doing exactly what she demands, she flashes a tit at you and gets you back to hoping you gonna get your way . . .

1st thing that pissed me off:
Quote:
Image

Actually even worse than that though because I started downloading at 9pm last night, and left it to run all night but I guess at some point Steam decided it needed to update so when I woke up, still 80% left to do . . .

Sometimes I wish we could go back to DVDs and brick-n-mortar retailers . . .


2nd thing:
Quote:
I think about game design and the business of game promotion and marketing a lot and all of my commentary comes from those two perspectives: a gamer with about 35 years of experience in board, rpg and computer games, as well as a modder with a sum total of a few years of experience (and also a consumer psychologist with about 25 years of experience in research and teaching). My second post on here was both to let out a point of frustration but also to _maybe_ start a dialogue about an issue of certainly controversial nature, but perhaps someone from Rockstar will listen in and take some notes.

This game is like this:

Think of the sexiest girlfriend/boyfriend (I'm on hetero-dude side of the continuum so I'll speak in terms of the XXX icon
Image

Its gets harder, it shoots farther, the sweat is like honey, when you get it, it's like crack-laced honey-opium, but without the side-effects, and of course it is wonderful to look at . . . even has an entertaining persona when you take it out in public. In sum: excellent physics and collision, wonderful graphics/art, amazing environments, grammy-ward nomination worthy characters and "acting" (both the voice and the cgi side of things), even very good (possibly excellent, but I'm not far enough along in the story to say yet) story. The game has almost everything going for it except for one thing:

The game is a fucking bitch.

"massive open world" (here is where the Minecraft comparison really latches on) NOT. Massive open facade, or perhaps massive open "race track."

I can appreciate the necessity to railroad the player in games like this, the story is what you want to focus them into. But the degree to which it is done in this game reflects one of three possible motives: (1) laziness [which I find hard to believe when I look at the high degree of excellence and attention to detail in every other aspect of the game . . . these guys are a powerhouse studio, they don't need to cut corners and overall they clearly have NOT cut corners, nonethless, walk up to 99.99% of the "buildings" in the game: NUTHIN . . .]; (2) failure to understand how to design an open-world game [again I find this hard to believe, though perhaps it is part of the issue. I mean seriously, have none of these guys PLAYED Minecraft, Oblivion, Skyrim, or insert the name of any of the other dozens of truly open-world games out there?]; (3) the desire to be a bitch and do what? get the player to do your bidding, i.e., get tired of grinding the story mode and log in to online, see the in-game currency offers, and pay up.

This is why Minecraft is a better game: Minecraft, from the outset, NEVER sought to be a bitch by design. Mr. Perrsson, in buying a 70 million Vinewood mansion and sliding RIGHT into the "I'm famous now, life is boring" ant trap demonstrated to the world that is a bit lacking in maturity or wisdom. But he was always a true artist and a good designer and a pretty damn good developer.

Are the visuals better in Minecraft?

Hell no!

Are the physics or game mechanics better? Of course not.

We can list off all the ways in which GTA5 far surpases Minecraft and many other games with comparable or greater total value and perpetuity of community engagement: Visuals, environment, characterization, story . . . Minecraft is either orders of magnitude worse on any of these dimensions, or simply has a NULL value.

On most benchmark type dimensions, GTA5 kicks Minecraft's ass.

Then we come to the last dimension: the "moddable open-world" dimension (which is another way of saying "Long-term user engagement" or "replay value"): Minecraft curbstomps GTA5 on this one. Even games like Skyrim do to.

Does this break GTA 5, that is not what I'm saying. What it does, is take a piece of art which had the capacity to be the early 21st century digital equivalent of the fucking Mona Lisa or works of Shakespeare and instead turn it into a disposable redlight district skank house. The REALLY sad part is, Rockstar did NOT have to go about it like this even GIVEN what they wanted ultimate was the big bucks. You make money not by herding your customers into a slaughter funnel and then giving them no option except to turn off or pay up. You do it by giving them the FREEDOM to choose and then providing them with enticing choices.

All of this makes me want to give GTA 5 a 1 out of 10, but then I'd be untrue. She is a sexy bitch, even though she is a bitch. 8.9/10.

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Last edited by Anthropoid on Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:16 pm 
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3rd thing
Quote:
Lets say you just purchased GTA 5 and installed it off Steam. No mods, no DLC, and you don't want to play online.

So you initialize the game then turn Steam to offline mode.

Now you start the the story mode: You are a bank robber and you are being given some tips on how to control the avatar (when it allows you, which is only about 40% of the actual time the movie/game is playing). This is not "open-world" this is scripted cinematic with limited periodic user-interactive to advance the script. Without the intent to be derogatory, we can call this 'Railroad Gaming:" the game goes in one direction, the player just has to figure out how to go in that direction and do it and the game advances to the next scene.

So you figure out how that all works, and you get to the next chapter where you are now a new character in Los Santos, about to engage in car theft. Not sure how concerned I should be about spoilers at this point . . . 3 year old game and a rants/off-topic section, but I'll try to keep it fairly "non-spoiler."

At this point the "dimensions of the railroad track" seem a lot bigger. There is a whole city visible when you pan around and look at stuff. There are more characters, pedestrians, traffic, planes flying over head. All amazingly well done, convincing and engaging. The game gives you more cues on where you are to next step in this intricate dance exemplar of Railroad Gaming --> you gotta follow this dude you "just met" in the other car.

What happens if you pass him? he rams you and you fall back. What happens if you lag behind? you lose. What happens if you take a shortcut? if it isn't too far off course, no problem, but you just might pass by some of the "mile markers on the train track" and thus fail to get the gold . . . All this to say --> what you "must" do is stick on Lamar's bumper like glue and do it with perfect precision, accuracy, and adaptability. THAT is the measure of "perfect play," nothing else. The only room for creative play, for exploration, for creating emergent complexity, is defined within the narrow boundaries of "stick on Lamar's bumper like glue."

If you do that, and you also anticipate when it is time to pass him and win the race = you are a gold medal winner. Anything else? Either you win a lesser prize, or you fail and you have to either restart or retry.

Is this "open-world?" Not in the least. It maintains a passable illusion of being "open" but in fact it is only as "open" as the small margin of error represented in the game as the bubble around Lamar's car.

I would estimate that 90% of the "game" is exemplified in this "Franklin & and Lamar" interactive cinematic, meaning: there are lots of different cinematics, all of them AMAZING (think of that sexy bitch that makes you hard as a rock, but then fails to fully satisfy by allowing YOU to take off her clothes . . .) but they all fundamentally are the same thing: stay in this spot, which very well might be a moving spot careening through the landscape, and might also involve firing shots or engaging in other forms of user input at various points . . .

Railroad Gaming with the illusion of "open."

Now lets address the other "mode" of story mode . . . inter-mission mode. Now you can save, you can walk around wherever you want, you can steal cars (and BOY are their plenty of those), you can assault or murder NPCs, you can explore the map and the facades of all the buildings and physiography of the landscape (including underwater). All of this is amazing, TRULY AMAZING!

But going back to what I already said, how many of those "buildings" can you go into? How many of those characters do anything except say "Hi" then "Get away from me!" else "You want some of this?" Mostly the NPCs are a handful of scripts, probably fewer then 1% of them that are being instanced in the game at any given time have a name or any non-generic content, and the vast majority of the buildings are either locked until you manage to get farther along in Railroad mode, or just simply have no content behind the facade.

If you want to drive around aimlessly, robbing the handful of stores that can be entered, looking for easter eggs, assualting NPCs to grind up your strength and evading cops, this is all well and good, but it does NOT constitute "open-world;" it constitutes an open set, an open facade, and open race track.

Okay fine. So most of the "content" in the game is just a facade . . . but surely Rockstar designed it so that it is drop dead easy for users to build content for them (you know . . . like Minecraft did?): NOPE. I have only just begun to explore the GTA5 modding scene, but what I've gathered so far: at the outset of the PC release, there were little to no modding tools or access points provided by Rockstar. I won't try to guess the specifics of how the modding scene was "broken into" but it seems pretty clear Rockstar didn't design the game to be "moddable" they designed it to be sexy and to promote use of their online pay-to-win application.

ADDIT: re: the list of Rockstar's past accomplishments . . . oh definitely! The are an accomplished studio. They have made a lot of successful products and come a long way.

But they apparently still do not know what "open-world" means, with Minecraft being the gold standard on that concept, but lots of other games also offering decent examples.



Closing thoughts
Quote:
I'm not here to bad mouth the game. Just to express what pisses me off, and . . . maybe, if anyone in any decision making capacity at Rockstar llistens and takes me seriously to . . . maybe . . . have some tiny influence on GTA 6 . . .

GTA 5, even with the limitations I've griped about above fully accounted, is a five-star game. If I accept "its" standard (meaning its consumer bases standard) of what constitutes an "open-world" then I most certainly give it a 9.99 out of ten. Its brilliant and fun . . . I was just doing some missions as Michael. Finished one with this wife Amanda. Back at their house took a nap and saved. Went downstairs and here's Amanda standing at the kitchen counter and getting shit-faced drinking an entire bottle of whiskey . . .

"You can take the girl out of the strip club." . . . . "It numbs the pain." . . . etc.

These expert characterizations, and the obviously significant team coordination which went into them, are absolutely beautiful. What is more, the game is choke full of them . . . but then I think . . . so why can't I go into/break into even 50% of the structures on this island :(

If we don't ask for it for GTA 6 we won't get it. If they think they will sell more units, move more product in general then they will realize it is worthwhile. I am one of those players who has played literally 2000 hours of Skyrim, but I leave Steam in offline mode 97% of the time, I have NEVER finished any of the "core missions" or only a few chapters worth, but I've done literally hundreds of "side missions" <-- this, combined with an incredible degree of moddability is why Skyrim and its community are going strong years later.

Just sayin.


All quoted from my input at the gta forums . . .

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Nero: So what is your challenge?

Anthro: Answer question #2: How do "Climate Change models" mathematically control for the natural forces which caused the Ice Age(s) to come and go . . . repeatedly?


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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:28 pm 
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C'mon Kamo, move this thread to the Game Room.

Ordnung muss sein.

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:33 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Well no shit. "3d game graphics" are really just "more complicated bitmaps!?"

I can see some sense to making mobile games: write in Java so you (more or less) automatically have cross-platform and ample building materials to work with (libraries, sounds, graphics), charge little per unit, sell high volume. Angry Birds has made those guys a lot of dough hasn't it? Obviously Minecraft was a winner.

So what applications DO use true vector graphics?



Unity3D and Unreal DK are the primary engines / editors used to create 3D applications and games. The engine splash screen is only featured on free license builds, most paid license users take it away because they've paid for the ability to do so and would rather have their own logo at start.

I don't know of Unreal but 2 years ago they still didn't support vector graphics. I don't hear of anyone using vector graphics at least with game development and the two primary engines don't support it.

Vector graphics can be used to create an image and then get almost any resolution version out of it with ease without coming against the problems related to upscaling the resolution later which is a common problem with game resolutions constantly growing and art rarely being made to cater for what the resolution *might* be in 5 years.


---------------

GTA V is great, the black protagonist anti-hero is just one of the characters and the two other are white, one of them being a mafioso.

It's a great game and definitely not Politically Correct. Don't want to spoil the plot or anything but it's not putting out a message that the blacks are an oppressed minority.

Just play it to see for yourself.

They spent 128 million dollars to develop this game. It is vast and the story is long and includes heist missions.

Heists are awesome. You have a target, you choose a plan, you choose your crew, acquire necessary assets and then try to execute. Less experienced crew take a smaller cut but they may do mistakes. Having more people leads to lesser cut to you. The less experienced folks gain experience when taken along but their cut stays the same. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:34 am 
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nero wrote:
C'mon Kamo, move this thread to the Game Room.

Ordnung muss sein.


I don't believe in rules :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:22 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
nero wrote:
C'mon Kamo, move this thread to the Game Room.

Ordnung muss sein.


I don't believe in rules :lol:

But you do. ;)

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Sarcasm.

But truly, a rule for rule's sake is when we lose our humanity.

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:28 am 
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Hey Anthro, do you have to join that Rock Star Club to play?

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Sarcasm.

But truly, a rule for rule's sake is when we lose our humanity.

Most of the rules are for a good reason. Like drive on the right side of the street. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 11 Bravo: YOU HAVE GOT TO TRY THIS GAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:14 pm 
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11Bravo wrote:

Just getting into Silent Hunter 4 now.


Did you get that on Steam?
Seems like a lot of people are bitching that you can't use all the good mods for it if you buy it on Steam but if you get it elsewhere you can.
What's your experience been?

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