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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:20 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
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I'm a land crab. Tried Harpoon but never really got into it. Bluefor tanks in STHLM eh....


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:04 pm 
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IT'S OUT, READY THE BANK ACCOUNT!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:41 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
IT'S OUT, READY THE BANK ACCOUNT!!!


Indeed. Just picked it up. Pricier than I expect, but this is a grail game for me, and the developers seem to be receptive.

The devs have talked about adding future DLC that include playable Soviet and British subs, along with more varied campaign years. (Insert the usual U-aboos crying for "a WW2 version :roll: )

Cold Waters needs some improvements. You have to manually navigate, using the rudder, dive planes, ballast setting, and engine telegraph at the moment. Currently no specific course & depth orders to give, as in the old RSR. The devs are responding to requests, so hopefully that will be added. Would be happy even if it were just a mouse button click, to set course, similar to how you aim & fire torpedoes right now.

Also would like to see a small 3D view window in the big Tactical map view (TAB key). Or a way to switch the map and 3D in the regular screen, like how Sub Command & Dangerous Waters did. Using a big Tac View map just looks to be the most efficient way to keep up with everything while hot & heavy.


The gameplay is definitely straight from RSR. Minus the navigation controls, which is more like SSN.


Something else people pointed out (and plays similar to RSR) that you want to know:

On the campaign map, when you hold your Left Mouse Button to move, you are traveling at Full Speed, .i.e transit speed. About 25 knots. Not stealthy for a sub, but a must for getting places in reasonable time.

> If you encounter an enemy group, while holding LMB on the campaign map, you will start the combat at 25 knots! <

Hold down Right Mouse Button when near suspected enemy location, on the campaign map. That is the slow & silent patrol speed you want to be using when searching for an enemy group. You should start off at the appropriate 5 knot creep.

Just like RSR, which had this sprint/drift. Realistically forces us to estimate where a target group is heading, then get there beforehand and set up an ambush. Sub style, baby. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:09 pm 
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This is one hard game. I've broken contact with Soviet patrol aircraft... once. The smeggers are everywhere, too.

... I've been playing for a while. Ouch. I think half the USN has been sunk by yours truly.

Controlling the submarine is a bit of a pain. Reminds me of 688 Attack Sub, but a bit simpler... probably for the best.

Shame you can't try a diesel-electric as well. And no friendly surface ships? Not blowing up the Nimitz by mistake is usually a thing after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:18 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
This is one hard game. I've broken contact with Soviet patrol aircraft... once. The smeggers are everywhere, too.

... I've been playing for a while. Ouch. I think half the USN has been sunk by yours truly.

Controlling the submarine is a bit of a pain. Reminds me of 688 Attack Sub, but a bit simpler... probably for the best.

Shame you can't try a diesel-electric as well. And no friendly surface ships? Not blowing up the Nimitz by mistake is usually a thing after all.



The devs were talking about adding DLC in the future. Specifically Soviet and British boats. Maybe they'll add a playable Kilo to the Soviet side? Although diesel boats are slower, and obviously shorter ranged. Was kinda fun running a Kilo in SC and DW, though, so I wouldn't complain as long as there's at least one nuke boat too.

From what I understand, this game is only about commanding a single submarine through a war. So no surface ships. May as well just pick up CMANO or the old Harpoon package from Matrix if you want to run surface warships. I don't think a single warship is nearly as enjoyable since it's just a matter of finding a target, via radar, and shooting a bunch of missiles over the horizon at them. I still recall playing that old C64 warship game Strike Fleet back in the 80s. It was fun, but not nearly as much as the sub games.

As for the aircraft constantly attacking, if you keep launching noisemakers and decoys, they'll quickly come to that spot. Then launch and search. Warships will also launch rocket-boosted torpedoes around your noisemakers. They're so much easier to hear than you. So countermeasures quickly draw a lot of fire, and aircraft attention, to that area. If you have to use one to decoy a homing torpedo, then it's best you're getting the hell out of there ASAP because more will likely be coming. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:59 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
The devs were talking about adding DLC in the future. Specifically Soviet and British boats. Maybe they'll add a playable Kilo to the Soviet side? Although diesel boats are slower, and obviously shorter ranged. Was kinda fun running a Kilo in SC and DW, though, so I wouldn't complain as long as there's at least one nuke boat too.


That would be awesome. A Kilo would be cool, SSKs have certain advantages despite being overall worse after all.

Also, Trafalgar SSN, woo. ;) I'll buy that for a dollar.

Quote:
From what I understand, this game is only about commanding a single submarine through a war. So no surface ships. May as well just pick up CMANO or the old Harpoon package from Matrix if you want to run surface warships. I don't think a single warship is nearly as enjoyable since it's just a matter of finding a target, via radar, and shooting a bunch of missiles over the horizon at them. I still recall playing that old C64 warship game Strike Fleet back in the 80s. It was fun, but not nearly as much as the sub games.


I don't mean being a surface ship, I mean seeing friendly task forces and such. I think for surface fleets you need a different game entirely, something like CMANO.

I loved Fighting Steel back in the day, that was the shizznit for some surface ship action.

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As for the aircraft constantly attacking, if you keep launching noisemakers and decoys, they'll quickly come to that spot. Then launch and search. Warships will also launch rocket-boosted torpedoes around your noisemakers. They're so much easier to hear than you. So countermeasures quickly draw a lot of fire, and aircraft attention, to that area. If you have to use one to decoy a homing torpedo, then it's best you're getting the hell out of there ASAP because more will likely be coming. ;)


Yeah, I'm getting better, but the other day I had an aircraft buzzing me again and again and again. Silent running, 900 metres down, made no odds, he was on my ass no matter what. I think it ran out of torpedoes as I dodged them all, but it was still after me.

I've been killed by my own torpedoes more than once. :shock: Fired one at a Charlie hugging the bottom at 10km. It missed, and went into a search pattern. Fired another one, which hit and killed the Charlie. Right after that my first torpedo locked onto me, from a long way away, and US torpedoes are apparently a lot harder to decoy than Soviet ones. Dead me. :o :D I guess it locked onto the noise I made for firing a weapon.

Modern naval combat seems super deadly. Like usually if I bump into, say, 3 Soviet surface warships, I get them all no problem. Unfortunately their torpedoes get me in turn. :lol:

Surface ship and aircraft are spraying out active sonar constantly as they don't care about stealth. Unfortunately active sonar seems to be extremely good, so I get busted immediately. I suppose I should stay further away and use the Harpoons more. Using the layer, well, unfortunately at least half the time there is no layer, or only a weak layer. when there's a decent layer things are much easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:25 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
Also, Trafalgar SSN, woo. ;) I'll buy that for a dollar.


Absolutely.

I created specific scenarios, in the Sub Command mod years ago, for the Traffies. For a proper excuse to play them. Excellent class of boats. Especially loved their fast torpedoes. 8-)

Quote:
I don't mean being a surface ship, I mean seeing friendly task forces and such. I think for surface fleets you need a different game entirely, something like CMANO.

I loved Fighting Steel back in the day, that was the shizznit for some surface ship action.


I see.

Watched a vid where some dude accidentally killed a whale with a torpedo. Contact was green on the display, for a neutral, so at least there are some targets you shouldn't be shooting present in the game.

I share the sentiment regarding finding friendlies out there too. Without them, it's easier deciding to sling torpedoes willy-nilly at any suspected warship since they'll all be enemies. Most notably missing are friendly and allied subs, which should lend the most hesitancy.

Quote:
Yeah, I'm getting better, but the other day I had an aircraft buzzing me again and again and again. Silent running, 900 metres down, made no odds, he was on my ass no matter what. I think it ran out of torpedoes as I dodged them all, but it was still after me.

I've been killed by my own torpedoes more than once. :shock: Fired one at a Charlie hugging the bottom at 10km. It missed, and went into a search pattern. Fired another one, which hit and killed the Charlie. Right after that my first torpedo locked onto me, from a long way away, and US torpedoes are apparently a lot harder to decoy than Soviet ones. Dead me. :o :D I guess it locked onto the noise I made for firing a weapon.


Mk48s have a more capable homing sonar than most Soviet ones in the game. Longer possible acquisition range, but I think they also have better programming to deal with decoys.

Most of the air-dropped, surface ship-launched, and rocket-dropped homing torpedoes are much smaller than your big sub torps. So their sonars and warheads are a fraction of the size and capability too.

The Soviet USET-80 submarine launched torpedo is the closest in capability to the Mk48. Although it's seeker still probably isn't quite as good as the '48. Especially a Mk48 ADCAP (Advanced Capability), but I'm not sure those are in the game yet, in 1984.


Quote:
Modern naval combat seems super deadly. Like usually if I bump into, say, 3 Soviet surface warships, I get them all no problem. Unfortunately their torpedoes get me in turn. :lol:

Surface ship and aircraft are spraying out active sonar constantly as they don't care about stealth. Unfortunately active sonar seems to be extremely good, so I get busted immediately. I suppose I should stay further away and use the Harpoons more. Using the layer, well, unfortunately at least half the time there is no layer, or only a weak layer. when there's a decent layer things are much easier.



Yes, very deadly. "If you can see it, you can kill it" is something to keep in mind.

Luckily you've got a good stealth advantage over most the Russkies in 1984. But you still want to keep distance from their surface ships because active sonar doesn't care how slow & silent you are going. It's not listening to your power plant, flow noise, etc, but for it's own ping's echo of your hull. That's the trick - staying close enough to keep a good signal, and build a good firing solution over time with your passive sonar, but keeping out of range of their active sonar returns.

Once you've ID'd the specific ship classes, the game gives you estimated sound levels that the target's sonar is picking up from your boat, at any moment. Think it's on the waterfall display tab. So you can get an idea how close to being detected you are. However, it relies heavily on having the right classification, and a good solution that shows just how far away it really is, to be more than an estimate.

The Soviets' doctrine was for their surface warships to liberally use active sonar. Their passive sonar generally wasn't very good in their surface ships, so the 'Thundering Herd' was the norm. But besides giving away their position with active sonar, there is another setback. The ping sounds have to travel twice as far, to get back to the pinging ship and detect you. So you'll hear them pinging long before they can detect you with them. Plan & move accordingly. ;)

The biggest issue, when up against a surface group, is the ASW aircraft. As you probably know by now. The helos often having dipping sonar. All kinds tend to have sonobuoys - both active and passive. If you're being hounded by an ASW aircraft who's obviously located you, he's probably dropped lines of sonobuoys overhead and, as mentioned, it doesn't matter how silent you're running when they are active pingers. :shock: Only thing you can do is get the hell out of there, dodge torpedoes, and hopefully go left when he thinks you went right. Then, if it looks like you temporarily shook him, get back to silent or slow creep. :mrgreen:

Fortunately sonobuoys have a rather small effective range, and aircraft will eventually run out of them. Although planes like the Tu-142 Bear F and the IL-38 May have quite a number. Soviet doctrine also included having these ASW aircraft regularly saturating an important task force's future path with sonobuoys. So you'll be seeing them regularly. :twisted: You also may not hear them when they're doing stuff overhead, as your sonar has vertical limits - a blind cone above and below the boat.

As for being counter-fired on and killed, you might try dog-legging your torpedoes in from a different direction. If you can be careful enough to keep the wire(s) intact during the torpedoes' run. If you shoot them at an off-angle, then turn them in at the target from a different direction, before it goes active, then they will be more likely to make return shots down that false bearing. And probably send their helos down that way, too. Of course, if your wire breaks before you've turned these fish on their final heading towards the target, they are probably wasted shots. There is also a chance that they will detect them before they go active, and see their original heading which points back to your launch location. Fun deceits to be had!

Cracking their SSBN bastions was the hardest thing to do in RSR. I'd expect this one to be similarly difficult. But the Boomer killing missions were always late-campaign in RSR, so is probably the same in CW. Navigating through minefields, with enemy attack subs patrolling around, and a Boomer very stealthy inside them, was damn intense. With having to manually navigate, right now, getting through those minefields with all the baddies around, will probably be even more hairy.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Having a helluva lot of fun with this. But it desperately needs a few bugs fixed.


Notably the one in which you can't exit a battle except by traveling to the red border on the edge of the battle map.

Which takes a long damn time, especially since the Terminator ASW aircraft have some kind of broken knowledge about where you are at all times - even if they don't have you on their sensors. So sonobuoys most of the way, until they run out.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:34 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Which takes a long damn time, especially since the Terminator ASW aircraft have some kind of broken knowledge about where you are at all times - even if they don't have you on their sensors. So sonobuoys most of the way, until they run out.


See, see!

I didn't realise that was a bug.

It's even worse when they know where you are and keep dropping torpedoes on you. Though it's kinda funny seeing this huge nuclear submarine dodging and weaving while being chased by four of the buggers. And surviving.

That would be a proper rollercoaster ride for the crew... with simultaneous brown trousers.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Waters -- inspired by Red Storm Rising
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:19 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:
Which takes a long damn time, especially since the Terminator ASW aircraft have some kind of broken knowledge about where you are at all times - even if they don't have you on their sensors. So sonobuoys most of the way, until they run out.


See, see!

I didn't realise that was a bug.

It's even worse when they know where you are and keep dropping torpedoes on you. Though it's kinda funny seeing this huge nuclear submarine dodging and weaving while being chased by four of the buggers. And surviving.

That would be a proper rollercoaster ride for the crew... with simultaneous brown trousers.



A developer stated that the MAD equipment on each ASW aircraft is currently detecting you out to thousands of yards. Which is WAY too much.

I always heard/read that they only worked against subs at shallow depth. As in less than 200 feet. Maybe less. Plus the plane has to fly almost directly overhead. So it is way off. It's just a big metal detector.


I had one mission where three IL-38s unerringly chased me across the map. Until they ran out of sonobuoys, which they would drop almost right on top of me (due to MAD bug at the least) every few minutes. Plus I had the bug which prevented me from leaving the mission. So had to go to the red line to bug out.

That was annoying, spending all that extra time running, but the planes never dropped on me while I was running deep and 10 knots or so. Their sonobuoys never detected me well enough to get a good weapon solution.

Once both of those bugs are fixed, things will be much better. Especially the one preventing exit from the battle area - it can be a real time waster. I might actually have to bump the difficult up a notch, at that point. But "Hard" is basically the 1:1 difficulty setting anyway.

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