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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:27 pm 
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[quote="EUBananaThe German Empire upset the balance of power; prior to that, there were no wars between France and Prussia in the 19th century after Napoleon was dealt with.

Huh? You forget about the Franco-German war? 1870-1871

Or are you counting Napoleon III as that guy? Because Germany curb stomped the French in that 1 year, and I mean totally curb stomped them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:34 am 
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2ndAcr wrote:
[quote="EUBananaThe German Empire upset the balance of power; prior to that, there were no wars between France and Prussia in the 19th century after Napoleon was dealt with.

Huh? You forget about the Franco-German war? 1870-1871

Or are you counting Napoleon III as that guy? Because Germany curb stomped the French in that 1 year, and I mean totally curb stomped them.


My bad. I mean nobody had attacked them! there was plenty of German aggression; hence the need for German containment. Germany/Prussia was meddling all over the place, threatening France, beating up Austria, messing around with Denmark. There was no threat to Germany though.

If I was running France in 1880 then I think I'd be quite justified in getting ready for the next act of German aggression and doing what I could to protect La France from it.

And I don't put much credence in poor Germany in 1914 being justly threatened by nasty Russia's railways, any more than they were justly threatened by the Triple Entente - set up in response to German aggression.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:59 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
2ndAcr wrote:
[quote="EUBananaThe German Empire upset the balance of power; prior to that, there were no wars between France and Prussia in the 19th century after Napoleon was dealt with.

Huh? You forget about the Franco-German war? 1870-1871

Or are you counting Napoleon III as that guy? Because Germany curb stomped the French in that 1 year, and I mean totally curb stomped them.


My bad. I mean nobody had attacked them! there was plenty of German aggression; hence the need for German containment. Germany/Prussia was meddling all over the place, threatening France, beating up Austria, messing around with Denmark. There was no threat to Germany though.

If I was running France in 1880 then I think I'd be quite justified in getting ready for the next act of German aggression and doing what I could to protect La France from it.

And I don't put much credence in poor Germany in 1914 being justly threatened by nasty Russia's railways, any more than they were justly threatened by the Triple Entente - set up in response to German aggression.

In 1880, France wanted a revenge of 1870, and wanted to take back Alsace Lorraine. Not sure that in their mind, the French thought that they had to defend against the Germans. On the contrary, they thought to attack Germany (Plan XVII), and as everybody knows it, failed in their offensive in Lorraine. The French wanted war as much as the Germans. In 1914, everybody was an aggressor, not just the Germans.


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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:18 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
EUBanana wrote:

My bad. I mean nobody had attacked them! there was plenty of German aggression; hence the need for German containment. Germany/Prussia was meddling all over the place, threatening France, beating up Austria, messing around with Denmark. There was no threat to Germany though.

If I was running France in 1880 then I think I'd be quite justified in getting ready for the next act of German aggression and doing what I could to protect La France from it.

And I don't put much credence in poor Germany in 1914 being justly threatened by nasty Russia's railways, any more than they were justly threatened by the Triple Entente - set up in response to German aggression.

In 1880, France wanted a revenge of 1870, and wanted to take back Alsace Lorraine. Not sure that in their mind, the French thought that they had to defend against the Germans. On the contrary, they thought to attack Germany (Plan XVII), and as everybody knows it, failed in their offensive in Lorraine. The French wanted war as much as the Germans. In 1914, everybody was an aggressor, not just the Germans.


Except we Yanks! :) We were the voice of reason; as always!

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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
LaPalice wrote:
In 1880, France wanted a revenge of 1870, and wanted to take back Alsace Lorraine. Not sure that in their mind, the French thought that they had to defend against the Germans. On the contrary, they thought to attack Germany (Plan XVII), and as everybody knows it, failed in their offensive in Lorraine. The French wanted war as much as the Germans. In 1914, everybody was an aggressor, not just the Germans.


Except we Yanks! :) We were the voice of reason; as always!

It is true that there are less conflicts in North America, and even Latin America, than in Europe. Maybe because that there is less nations in your continents. And yes, America is a voice of reason. It is because of the US if there have been no war in Europe since 45, except in Yougoslavia, not because the Europeans decided to build the EU.


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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:31 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:


Except we Yanks! :) We were the voice of reason; as always!

It is true that there are less conflicts in North America, and even Latin America, than in Europe. Maybe because that there is less nations in your continents. And yes, America is a voice of reason. It is because of the US if there have been no war in Europe since 45, except in Yougoslavia, not because the Europeans decided to build the EU.



Well, there was the infamous Cod Wars (in which the UK lost to Iceland) ;-)

I suppose that may explain (in part) why the UK went balls out against the poor Argies in 1982 :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:25 am 
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LaPalice wrote:
It is true that there are less conflicts in North America, and even Latin America, than in Europe. Maybe because that there is less nations in your continents. And yes, America is a voice of reason. It is because of the US if there have been no war in Europe since 45, except in Yougoslavia, not because the Europeans decided to build the EU.


There were lots of wars in North America. The difference is that one tribe eventually won them all (including against the French and Spanish!), and now there's only one tribe left. I suppose you might even say that includes an offshoot of the main tribe which was developing into its own polity, ie the CSA.

Yanks now are as warlike as anybody else. They just have less reason to go to war in general. in a sense its kinda surprising that given they have less reason, they still end up in so many wars! I'm sure mdiehlio thinks that too... ;)

In Europe, there is a balance of power spread across various different tribes, and has been for over a millenia. No one tribe could take over, mainly because whenever they tried you ended up with various wars of containment as the others all banded up to stop them. They are no more fiercely independent or inherently warlike IMO than the tribe in North America either (there's no way a red blooded American would ever put up with the European Union!), it's just that there are lots of them, not one.

Looking elsewhere, I'm not sure that in South America the various tribes are actually stable enough to form governments capable of that sort of aggression. South America is hardly a peaceful place, it's just that the fighting is done intra state rather than between states. Brazil has enough problems beating the shit out of its underclasses, it doesn't need to go beating the shit out of Paraguay again. And supposedly Paraguay was a bit of an exception, super patriotic, super cohesive. And they caused a big war!
Pre-colonial India was a super violent place, various foreign invasions, fighting between princes. Modern India is a bit like the USA in that it's the result of an external force coming in and smashing heads until there was 1 government, there was no "India" until the British Raj created it. And India still has its share of social problems, petty uprisings etc, despite being given a pretty good founding myth to bind the nation together. I'm not so sure about China but I get the impression that China was such a hegemony that wars between states outside China were dampened somewhat by this hugely powerful state right in the middle of it that was utterly dominant until the Opium Wars, and so most of China's violence was again intra-state, civil wars and the like, which they had quite a few of.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:27 am 
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LaPalice wrote:
In 1880, France wanted a revenge of 1870, and wanted to take back Alsace Lorraine. Not sure that in their mind, the French thought that they had to defend against the Germans. On the contrary, they thought to attack Germany (Plan XVII), and as everybody knows it, failed in their offensive in Lorraine. The French wanted war as much as the Germans. In 1914, everybody was an aggressor, not just the Germans.


True enough, I forgot about the whole revanchism thing. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:35 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Well, there was the infamous Cod Wars (in which the UK lost to Iceland) ;-)

I suppose that may explain (in part) why the UK went balls out against the poor Argies in 1982 :lol:


Well, at least back then the Government here was actually trying to fight the corner of its citizens. Those heady days! clearly another era entirely.

Nowadays they are happy to not reclaim our fishing waters just to suck up to Druncker and co, while remainers are all 'I dont give a fuck about fishing'. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The Great War
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm 
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The war of 1870 was a partly result of German nationalism and unification. But is was the French who started the war, and got a bloody nose and lost Elsass-Lothringen back heim ins reich. But these areas were annexed by Louis XIV during late 17th century. German speaking country with German culture anyway.

Just for those who don't know.

And the French had their revanchism after the fact. The leading figure was Clemenceau, the Tiger Clemenceau. And the revenge caused another round of revanchism, Fall Gelb.

Luckily some wise men like Jean Monet and Robert Schuman got an idea to end the feud.

Not a bad idea, IMHO.

But this peaceful coexistence means toning down nationalistic tendencies, so some revanchism is inevitable. Like brexit and the lost empire nostalgia. :lol:

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