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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:32 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:

Lincoln suffered much the same problems as far as I know.


The much more industrialized north had far better means to do so, however, and it showed in the Union's overwhelming progress, in that realm, during the war. The infrastructure, alone, left quite a spread between their comparative capabilities.


The Unions great weakness, which was never fully reformed into a neutral-state, much less a strength, was internal dissent among northern populations, northern leaders, and even the military. If the CSA had any hope of achieving enough of a stalemate to bring the Union to the table, it was in the summer of 1864. A major loss might have either forced Lincoln to end the war due to public opinion or lose the election to McClellan and that certainly would have brought about an armistice which would almost assuredly not have amounted to an unconditional surrender. McClellan was no Copperhead, but the whole northern arm of the Democratic party was divided by the issue of the war, and McClellan would not have been in the position Lincoln was in for the last months of the war to press forward as brutally and harshly as Lincoln and his Generals did.

The south could not "win" the war in the sense of forcing the Union to surrender; but for the south, merely achieving a peace in which their secession was in some sense validated, i.e., NOT an unconditional surrender which summarily brought all the states back into the Union by fiat. Similar to the guerrilla war philosophy later expressed by Mao, victory for the CSA would have only required the threshold of surviving into a post-war period without loss of their sovereignty.

Even among Republican leaning folks, the war was not popular in the North and it got progressively less popular as the years drug on. If Lee had managed to win a major victory while on Northern ground, the war could have ended right then and there.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:03 pm 
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If Lee had not won at Gettysburg, Winston Churchill
http://crookedtimber.org/wp-content/upl ... ysburg.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:04 am 
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abradley wrote:
If Lee had not won at Gettysburg, Winston Churchill
http://crookedtimber.org/wp-content/upl ... ysburg.pdf


Holy crap, that is the MOST brilliant piece of social commentary I think i have ever read!

Good post :P

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:35 pm 
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abradley wrote:
If Lee had not won at Gettysburg, Winston Churchill
http://crookedtimber.org/wp-content/upl ... ysburg.pdf

Actually the Gettysburg was a close call. The third day Picket assault was just Lee's frustration about the lost victory on the second day.

On the second day Longstreet attacked from West on Peach Orchard and the round tops. Meade had to thin you the defenses quite dramatically on the North side. Practically stripping all the forces out of Culp's Hill. And then Ewell's corps attacked on Culp's Hill only Pop Green's Brigade defending. I think that was the decisive moment of Gettysburg.

And the lesson was that sweat saves blood. Pop Greene had ordered his troops to make make breastworks and dig in.

This is according to inherent military logic that I can agree on.

Pop Greene saved the battle for the Union.

How about you thinking.

But then Lee winning, and capturing Washington would not have hampered any of the war potential of the North.

Perhaps politics is different.

But then I find the US politics quite irrational anyway.

I hope that I am wrong.

PS. Pop Greene is my hero of Gettysburg.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:05 pm 
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There were a lot of "heroes" at Gettysburg. It is a wonderful thing for us amateur historians to contemplate and offer opinions on "what if's". No one living today truly knows the "furthers and betters" based on instantaneous decisions made at points in time during that three days. A different world. An order from the left flank of Lee's army might take an hour or more to reach the right flank...and by then the original orders would quite probably be executed. The old saying was never more true than at Gettysburg: "No battle plan ever survives contact with enemy." Hard to quantify or qualify a commander's actions other than what was recorded action. As they say, the rest is history.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Quote:
BRADY'S PHOTOGRAPHS.; Pictures of the Dead at Antietam.
Published: October 20, 1862
http://www.nytimes.com/1862/10/20/news/ ... ll&mcubz=1
Before, a list of names,

After Antetium
Image
Image

Rather like Vietnam was our first television war.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:09 am 
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I've always admired the actions of the 1st Minnesota in the charge they made to help save the Union line late on the 2nd day. 20th Maine gets all press but check out what the 1st Minnesota did that day sometime.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:01 am 
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abradley wrote:
Quote:
BRADY'S PHOTOGRAPHS.; Pictures of the Dead at Antietam.
Published: October 20, 1862
http://www.nytimes.com/1862/10/20/news/ ... ll&mcubz=1
Before, a list of names,

After Antetium
Image
Image

Rather like Vietnam was our first television war.


I've read that some Civil War photographers (not sure if Brady was among these) were notorious for staging their photos. They would move around corpses and props (rifles, etc) in order to suit their desire for the most "dramatic" shot.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:06 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:

I've read that some Civil War photographers (not sure if Brady was among these) were notorious for staging their photos. They would move around corpses and props (rifles, etc) in order to suit their desire for the most "dramatic" shot.



Yeah. Heard the same.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Confederate' alternate history HBO drama
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Probable true, after all photography was just another form of art like painting and paintings, even of historical events, were usually composed for the best impression.

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