American Civil War, bits and peices.

A den of assassins, where anarchists conspire to rule the world and other enlightened stuff

Moderators: chijohnaok, Kameolontti

Forum rules
It's the Gulag of Fun
Message
Author
User avatar
abradley
buck private
Posts: 16730
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#21 Post by abradley » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:06 am



Starting about 10:00 Hanson sez Sherman rather than Grant saved the Union.

He has some good points.

I think both won the war, but Grant got the credit.
Posted by Keld Denar
+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... D-2-5-What

mdiehl
Sergeant Major
Posts: 22170
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Location: LV-426

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#22 Post by mdiehl » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:45 pm

Sherman received plenty of credit. He had no desire for a political career.

For my money Grant was the war winner. Grant was the one who understood that for the other US armies to operate freely and use their logistics and mobility advantages, the Army of the Potomac HAD TO pin down the Army of Northern Virginia. And the only way to ensure that would happen was for Grant to ride with Meade to make sure Meade didn't lose his nerve or lose contact with the Army of Northern Virginia.
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane
"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits
'Our father, which art in heaven..' "May he fucking stay there." - Al Swearengen, Deadwood

User avatar
abradley
buck private
Posts: 16730
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#23 Post by abradley » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:30 am



The video's opening paints a very dim view of Lincoln's chances of being reelected and without Lincoln the war was lost.
Posted by Keld Denar
+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... D-2-5-What

nelmsm
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4346
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:26 pm
Location: not the end of the world but you can see it from here

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#24 Post by nelmsm » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:43 am

The fall of Atlanta was huge in improving Lincoln's re-election chances. I've always thought that removing Joseph Johnston and replacing him with John Bell Hood was one of the bigger mistakes the CSA ever made. If they were going to replace Johnston it should have been with Longstreet.
Texas, where we have the death penalty and aren't afraid to use it! Build the wall!!

nero
Sergeant Major
Posts: 20952
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#25 Post by nero » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:20 pm

abradley wrote:

The video's opening paints a very dim view of Lincoln's chances of being reelected and without Lincoln the war was lost.
A good documentary, I have watched it few times (>2) before.

And capturing Atlanta helped Lincoln enormously. ;)

I have always found Sherman as an interesting general; perhaps not the greatest tactician, but having the big picture clear.

He was surprised pants down in Shilo, didn't do so well in Chattanooga (as Grant expected). But the Atlanta campaign and later events proved his brilliance as commander.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

mdiehl
Sergeant Major
Posts: 22170
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Location: LV-426

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#26 Post by mdiehl » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:22 pm

To be sure, victories always make Presidents popular. Just the same, when you look at the actual ballot results, it's not even close. Lincoln carried every state except three, and most of those by a minimum of 4%. There were enough soldiers and general populace cheesed off at McClellan for his ineptitude that he was not going to beat Lincoln. McClellan was the major minority candidate. There were no "peace democrats" in the offering, so either way the war was going to continue according to the public general opinion in the valid states, and therefore Lincoln was the one to continue it (because the Army of the Potomac did much better after Lincoln sacked McClellan).

Thus:

Lincoln was going to win either way. The absence of anything like modern survey sampling techniques probably allowed all manner of room for "concern" at the time.

Even if Lincoln had lost, the war would have continued because the alternative was a "War Democrat." Put another way, something like 90% of the voting public in the USA favored a continuation of the war to its successful conclusion. There was no sentiment in favor of a " peace platform."

The idea that Lincoln might get ousted and replaced by a Peacenik was always a secessionist pipe-dream.
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane
"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits
'Our father, which art in heaven..' "May he fucking stay there." - Al Swearengen, Deadwood

mdiehl
Sergeant Major
Posts: 22170
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Location: LV-426

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#27 Post by mdiehl » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:30 pm

Sherman's command position at Chattanooga was awkward. His troops had been held back by Halleck to repair a rr line and the main body of his corps did not arrive in time for the attack on Bragg's flank. The attack itself was planned by Thomas and Baldy Smith, and Sherman was tasked with implementing it within 12 h. of his arrival on the field.

Sherman was a "can do" fellow so he was not going to say "I won't attempt this" and when a higher general detaches a major part of your corps for gandy-dancer duty, you don't get to countermand the order.

As to surprise. Happened to every great general during the Civil War. The good ones rallied. The bad ones failed. Grant and Sherman were both very good generals.
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane
"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits
'Our father, which art in heaven..' "May he fucking stay there." - Al Swearengen, Deadwood

mdiehl
Sergeant Major
Posts: 22170
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Location: LV-426

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#28 Post by mdiehl » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:35 pm

BTW if you have not played them, I recommend a bunch of regiment scale games published by SPI mid-1970s through the e. 1990s. Most were written by Steven Jackson and published under the general series title "Great Battles of the American Civil War."

The first two were excellent essays in the craft. "Kernstown" (about 1st Kernstown) and "Terrible Swift Sword" (GBACW Vol. 1). After TSS was introduced, Jackson improved the command integrity rules in order to better simulate panic and battle fatigue. The first two are very good. The remainder are EXCELLENT.
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane
"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits
'Our father, which art in heaven..' "May he fucking stay there." - Al Swearengen, Deadwood

nero
Sergeant Major
Posts: 20952
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#29 Post by nero » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:57 pm

mdiehl wrote:Sherman's command position at Chattanooga was awkward. His troops had been held back by Halleck to repair a rr line and the main body of his corps did not arrive in time for the attack on Bragg's flank. The attack itself was planned by Thomas and Baldy Smith, and Sherman was tasked with implementing it within 12 h. of his arrival on the field.

Sherman was a "can do" fellow so he was not going to say "I won't attempt this" and when a higher general detaches a major part of your corps for gandy-dancer duty, you don't get to countermand the order.

As to surprise. Happened to every great general during the Civil War. The good ones rallied. The bad ones failed. Grant and Sherman were both very good generals.
I have great respect for Sherman. But he was not perfect. He did not produce much at Chattanooga, in a difficult situation. But Thomas delivered the victory in a much more difficult situation.

But then Sherman shined as an army commander. He out-danced Johnston from Chattanooga to Atlanta. And blundered only once in frontal attack at the Dead Angle. It was Sherman's Cold Harbor. :(

But as you say, Sherman was a great general.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

nelmsm
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4346
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:26 pm
Location: not the end of the world but you can see it from here

Re: American Civil War, bits and peices.

#30 Post by nelmsm » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:29 pm

Thomas was good but his troops produced a victory because they disobeyed orders and kept on charging up that ridge. They were originally only supposed to clear the troops at the base. Of course Bragg's dispositions didn't do much to help him either.
Texas, where we have the death penalty and aren't afraid to use it! Build the wall!!

Post Reply