maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:26 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


It's the Gulag of Fun



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:12 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20879
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 15552
Factual accuracy is important sneero. Let us be accurate. YOU are unable to be civil. The rest of us are doing just fine.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:19 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20879
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 15552
@Kameo...

You test them based on derived outcomes then archaeolgical data. Massive male mortality would result in disproportiante occurrence of male inhumations. Enhanced fecundity in a few locales should be evident by larger inhumation populations at a few sites; those cemetaries should have the "normal" demographic distribution age and sex- wise.

Better still, in Europe one could in theory sequence ancient DNA and identify the successful hot spot sites or site groups.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:01 am 
Offline
His Most Gracious Majesty, Commie of the Year
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 7880
Reputation points: 17300
mdiehl wrote:
@Kameo...

You test them based on derived outcomes then archaeolgical data. Massive male mortality would result in disproportiante occurrence of male inhumations. Enhanced fecundity in a few locales should be evident by larger inhumation populations at a few sites; those cemetaries should have the "normal" demographic distribution age and sex- wise.

Better still, in Europe one could in theory sequence ancient DNA and identify the successful hot spot sites or site groups.


That's the thing - we don't have that many grave sites or even settlements discovered.

Essentially, applying certain skepticism etc. and discrediting overzealous generalizations in reality if we were looking at a parking lot sized area representing human history we could take one shot upwards with a shotgun and the pellets would pretty well correspond with evidence to history ratio we have.

That a DNA study reveals that at some point the X chromosome has more diverse ancestry than Y doesn't *result* in an obvious conclusion. It is something that can potentially result from a number of very different things or their combinations.

But yea, continent sized trends can be better argued to be environmental factor driven things than ones produced by culture. Even then we can't really say *what* caused it - merely that an effect has been identified while the event is elusive.

_________________
Screw you nero


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:10 am 
Online
Sergeant Major
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 11945
Location: inside your worst nightmare
Reputation points: 15961
It is true that archaeology, and paleo studies in general, do not enjoy as much experimental leverage on their hypotheses as do studies of things that are taking place now. That doesn't mean it is "only" imaginings. Even the most rigorous of sciences are never actually FINAL, so it should come as no surprise that paleo studies are even less final.

The problem in my opinion is that too many people like Nero think that "strong support" for a particular hypothesis (much less some support, or only spotty support) automatically makes it TRUTH. From my perspective, even in the most well-established empirical generalizations and best supported theories in the most rigorous sciences, it is quite difficult to establish any "TRUTH."

Mathematics is perhaps the one area where we can speak of truth (at least some of the time, and there are even exceptions and caveats there!). But math is not "science." Math is a language of logic. Certainly the Queen of the Sciences but not a science itself. Or at least that is my view, and I'm happy to hear those of others!

_________________
Anthro's NSFW Thread


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:18 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 15903
Reputation points: 720
mdiehl wrote:
Factual accuracy is important sneero. Let us be accurate. YOU are unable to be civil. The rest of us are doing just fine.

:lol:

Yes, I am not civilized. But then you have a shot fuse. ;)

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:24 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 15903
Reputation points: 720
Another thing is that some of you do not realize that the evidence of the bottleneck is not from ancient, prehistoric DNA but from modern human genome. ;)

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:28 am 
Online
Sergeant Major
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 11945
Location: inside your worst nightmare
Reputation points: 15961
nero wrote:
Another thing is that some of you do not realize that the evidence of the bottleneck is not from ancient, prehistoric DNA but from modern human genome. ;)


*sigh* yes we DO realize that.

We also realize that it is, as Midol has tried to splain, a "statistical" observation . . .

How many living human subjects are we talking about Sneer? Do you even know?

Do you know what a "minimum necessary sample size" calculation is?

Do you know what an "error of the estimate" statistic is?

_________________
Anthro's NSFW Thread


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:29 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 15903
Reputation points: 720
Anthropoid wrote:
nero wrote:
Another thing is that some of you do not realize that the evidence of the bottleneck is not from ancient, prehistoric DNA but from modern human genome. ;)


*sigh* yes we DO realize that.

We also realize that it is, as Midol has tried to splain, a "statistical" observation . . .
...

Yeah, I am aware that mdiehl understood the thing, but some other people did not.

Anthropoid wrote:
I'll jump in and add my two cents at some point. That two cents is probably about 10 years "out-of-date" and (like everyone elses) was based on the inherently flawed ethnological and archaeological data available.


Anthropoid wrote:
Was the bottleneck an actual population bottleneck, or was it just a variability bottleneck? How would that be answered?

The thing about molecular paleobiology is that: at best it takes DECADES for a sufficient sample size and number of replicated studies to unfurl to warrant reaching conclusions. Indeed, sufficiently representative samples and generalizable results may NEVER be at hand.

I believe they now have DNA from several hundred (perhaps 1000) Neanderthal individuals? (it may be a lot less than that actually). Neanderthals existed for what? 200,000 years over virtually the entire extent of the north Old World? Maximum simultaneous population sizes probably > 500,000? Maximum total population ever perhaps 10,000,000? Can a non-random convenience sample of 0.0001% a population which changed over the course of its existence ever be considered representative of that population?

This issue is a bit different, but as far as I know, the original data on which the whole Y-chromosome paleo-variability inference models were based was TWO old Chinese brothers! TWO! :mrgreen: In 10 years that may be 50 pairs of brothers, and maybe in 20 years 100 pairs of brothers, at which point the margin of error (which is the actually correct technical term but close enough) for the estimates on which the model is based might be somewhat close to a bare minimum of acceptable?

It is definitely cool stuff, but they never tell the lay public the truth about this stuff: it is generally EXTREMELY speculative when it is first initiated and generally stays that way for decades. Remember as recently as 2000 there were scholars insisting that "Neanderthals are NOT US!" and they had "plenty" of empirical evidence to back up their arguments. Now, with sample sizes that have increased probably 50 or 80 fold compared to those days, we know that such claims were ludicrous. Obviously Neanderthals interbred with modern humans and Northern populations got more of the genetic material than southern ones. It is wise to be skeptical and not get too attached to any specific conclusion for a few years if not decades.

Not to say the arguments made in the article are not interesting--possible even accurate--but there is not really anyway to say at this point. More research is needed.


:roll:

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:53 pm 
Online
Sergeant Major
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 11945
Location: inside your worst nightmare
Reputation points: 15961
Yes that is right. I ask questions, which you never answer. Which is why I keep you on ignore and only on bi-annual occasions actually look at what you have to say; it is almost invariably a waste of my time. You are at least consistent.

_________________
Anthro's NSFW Thread


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:14 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 15903
Reputation points: 720
Anthropoid wrote:
Yes that is right. I ask questions, which you never answer. Which is why I keep you on ignore and only on bi-annual occasions actually look at what you have to say; it is almost invariably a waste of my time. You are at least consistent.

I provide articles and links. Do you homework. You can read, can't you? :roll:

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group