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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:53 am 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
(Snip)

So it goes.
Post–World War II baby boom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%8 ... _baby_boom

If war is not not stress, what is?

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:04 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
There is no compelling evidence that foragers were better at fighting or more involved in long distance commerce. There is a shton of evidence that adopting farming causes a population spike. Ima not get into a discussion where a bunch of incorect assumptions have to be refuted but just refer you to an idea called "the Neolithic Demographic Transition."

There is plenty of evidence that hunter gatherers were healthier and lived better life than early farmers.

gsearch: health of early farmers versus hunter gatherers.
Early Farmers Were Sicker and Shorter Than Their Forager Ancestors.
Health of farmers and hunter-gatherers.
Was agriculture the greatest blunder in human history?.

As for the obvious population spike, was it a good thing? :roll:

But let us discuss more, this is not war. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:47 am 
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I'll jump in and add my two cents at some point. That two cents is probably about 10 years "out-of-date" and (like everyone elses) was based on the inherently flawed ethnological and archaeological data available.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:11 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I'll jump in and add my two cents at some point. That two cents is probably about 10 years "out-of-date" and (like everyone elses) was based on the inherently flawed ethnological and archaeological data available.

Y-chromosome bottleneck, nothing to do with ethnology or archaeology. ;)

And more recent finding (2015). Pretty interesting stuff. Follow this link to find more reading.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:09 am 
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nero wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
I'll jump in and add my two cents at some point. That two cents is probably about 10 years "out-of-date" and (like everyone elses) was based on the inherently flawed ethnological and archaeological data available.

Y-chromosome bottleneck, nothing to do with ethnology or archaeology. ;)

And more recent finding (2015). Pretty interesting stuff. Follow this link to find more reading.

Image


LOL. Right! Cause molecular biological evidence is infallible AND, can explain the population-level and ecological factors that account for any putative anomalies in the molecular biology . . . :P

No need for cultural anthropology or archaeology or any of the other fields that a holistic anthropologist might consider in developing testable hypotheses!

Your capacity for being a reductionist pseudo-scientist never ceases to amaze me.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:45 am 
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Bottleneck denialist. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:46 am 
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Bottleneck denialist. :lol:

How come I am not surprised. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:24 am 
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Not denying shit. Probably was a bottleneck.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:02 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
There is no compelling evidence that foragers were better at fighting or more involved in long distance commerce. There is a shton of evidence that adopting farming causes a population spike. Ima not get into a discussion where a bunch of incorect assumptions have to be refuted but just refer you to an idea called "the Neolithic Demographic Transition."


Farming societies are the first societies that develop a surplus that allows the creation of professional soldiery.

These are people who's trade is to learn the art of killing and warfare. Their weapons and equipment are not designed for agriculture or hunting - they are designed to be weapons and are superior to hunting tools or other tools that have been improvised to weapons.

Immediately as the professional soldiery is created we see the emergence of despotism that is supported by privileged warrior elite.

This centralized form of governance can set ambitious goals for the civilization, it is able to systematically seek to create a military, fortifications and so on. It doesn't concern itself with raiding other tribes for cattle, food or women. It concerns itself with conquering territory and turning the inhabitants of that territory to subjects who will embrace agriculture. Essentially despotic agricultural societies are in the business of growing their power by integrating less developed and rivaling groups to their civilization and if need be rewriting their societal 'code'.

Mongols are specific case - the gigantic grazing grounds of the vast steppes allowed a massive population to exist while depending on primitive outdated methods. Their horses allowed them the mobility to traverse the steppes and their incorporation of Chinese bureaucrats and merchants into their culture and the centuries lasting construction of loyalties all combined to allow a temporary emergence of a horde that surpassed the size of standing armies of any one of their neighbors.

It was like an explosive reaction where centuries of relative complacency came into such abrupt contact with the horde that there was no time to adjust for many of the civilizations as they were completely overrun.

Eventually they clashed to the fortress walls and plated forces of Europe in the west, the Mameluke armies in the deserts of south-west, in east their ships were devastated by storms.

And in little more than hundred years this reaction had run it's course and their remaining neighbors had learned how to counter them and the following centuries are literally a story of how the agriculture based societies crush their empire as it's continuously pushed back by the relentless advance of agricultural societies - some of these societies having now adopted some of the tactics introduced by the mongols.

History shows no advantage for hunter gatherer over a member of an agricultural society. Any instances of innate advantages are due to presence or lack of a warrior culture. Many hunter gatherer cultures weren't warrior cultures at all and found themselves often pushed around by their neighboring warrior cultures. Then again the warrior cultures didn't have definitive advantages over the less warrior oriented cultures as long as those cultures had the ability to defend themselves.

This is because there's a difference between a culture having a warrior mindset and having well trained warriors. Due to the low sizes of hunter gatherer society's individual groups or member tribes the fighting skills often weren't probably very advanced - they could completely dismiss drilling and even organized training.

History of warfare is the history of how societies and civilizations learn how to organize violence with increasing capability.

Agriculture provides static habitats and larger population densities and excess which allow for the emergence and development of more advanced martial arts and eventually various systems for systematically training and drilling the troops which themselves become ever more professional over time.

If we look at Colonial Era we can see military having evolved so much that an industrial nation can simply take 16-20 year olds and over ~1-3 years mold them into a highly disciplined professional fighting force that can hold it's ground and advance under withering fire.

Culture can help make a difference in the morale of the unit and better motivate individual troops to try harder during training and afterwards. Above all culture is important in that it enables or doesn't the military to perform in the best possible way.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard times for men
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:14 am 
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My information is current and up to date. I publish articles on this and related matters.

So... "foragers are healthier."

Not necessarily. Also it depends. If you're talking about tooth-wear you are correct. If you're talking about fecundity, you are not correct. There is also .. pretty much everywhere... a lag between taking up farming and really big famines. Early farmers had much more reliable access to food than foragers... thus greater fertility rates. Also foragers in some places have injury rates that are rather elevated.

I wont engage on the desirability of more people. Suffice it to say I'd rather by a neolithic farmer than a forager any day, in the event of a zombie apocalypse.

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