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 Post subject: Gays and the Catholic Church.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:12 am 
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buck private
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This is in response to this viewtopic.php?p=339390#p339390 where Anthropoid questions Jesus' view on homosexuals.

Quote:
Jesus’ Wholly New Way of Life
https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2018/0 ... y-of-life/
Anthony Esolen

Wednesday, September 5, 2018

“Outside of condemning adulterous behavior,” writes Timothy Egan for The New York Times, “Christ never said anything about whom you could love.” His piece, “The Catholic Church is Sick with Sex,” reads like a harangue fit for a local tabloid, though it reflects what many liberals in America want to think.

Egan trots out Pope Alexander VI for his scandalous private life, and Julius II, and, apparently only to show that the Church is miserably benighted and not for anything pertinent to her teachings on sex, Pius IX.

Egan also engages in the de rigueur establishment of his credentials, telling us that he is/was Catholic, and was taught by fair-minded Jesuits. 
But he doesn’t know anything and doesn’t care to find out.

I don’t have room to rehearse every falsehood and fallacy and bigoted refusal to entertain contrary arguments, or to trouble himself to find out what they are. “Women should be priests,” he says. “Duh.”

But since a lot of Catholics repeat that canard about Jesus not saying much about sex, let us actually look at what he does say. 
 Jesus scandalized the people in two ways: by his infinite mercy toward sinners, and by his mercilessness toward sin.

His apostles were puzzled to find him speaking to the Samaritan woman, but they and others were downright dismayed when he raised the moral bar as high as heaven. “You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt. 5:27-28)

That’s not just a condemnation of behavior. Jesus condemns the attitude of the heart whether or not it is consummated. It fits with all of the rest of Jesus’ breathtaking and – without the grace of God – impossible exhortations, summed up so: “You, therefore, must be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Jesus never winks at sexual immorality, nor does he place it in a special category, as lighter or more pardonable than other kinds of sin. When the Pharisees complain that his disciples didn’t wash their hands before eating, Jesus rebuked them, saying that the food that goes into a man does not defile him, but what comes out of the man does.

His metaphor is scatological. The food that goes in comes out the natural way. But what comes from the heart is what really defiles: “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.” (Mark 7:21-22; emphasis mine)

Notice that lewdness and fornication and adultery are all fellows in a grab-bag of bad things, including slander, coveting, envy, pride, theft, and murder. Jesus is not saying that fornication is as bad as murder. He is saying that it is bad, as murder is bad. It defiles you in the heart. It smells worse there than the other stuff smells on your body.

Things get better. When the Pharisees invite him to enter the debate over licit cause to divorce your wife, Jesus sweeps the debate aside, appealing behind and above the Law of Moses, which had granted concessions to men because of the hardness of their fallen hearts.

He appeals to creation and the Creator’s intention before the Fall: “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matt. 19:4-6)

Paul understood the point, and insists upon it, following Jesus’ lead in twice citing the verse from Genesis. (Eph. 5:31, 1 Cor. 6:16) Jesus was preaching to Jews, while Paul was going forth to baptize the nations. Jesus did not need to preach to Jews against forms of sexual madness that had gripped the pagans, no more than Isaac Jogues had to preach against cannibalism to Frenchmen.

Besides, the argument a fortiori applies. If thoughts about sex with a woman to whom you are not married are forbidden, even though God made us male and female in the beginning, then we needn’t ask about behavior between a man and a man. The Law of Moses condemned such behavior in the severest terms, and when Jesus wants an exemplum of evil against which to judge the unbelieving cities, he turns to Sodom and Gomorrah. (Matt. 11:23-24)

But Paul was preaching to pagans, for whom all manner of sexual vices were a way of life. They were like the Iroquois who had to cease eating human flesh. So Paul does not simply condemn homosexual behavior. Like Jesus, he turns to Genesis and the consequences of the Fall, the darkened mind and the perverse will.

Therefore men do what is unnatural both theologically and sexually. They exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for images of corruptible men, and worse – birds and beasts and snakes; and to punish their folly God abandons them to their vile affections, as they violate the structure of creation and their bodies, women with women and men with men.

Paul lists those sins in a roll of others, a roll that sounds like what Jesus said to the Pharisees, for pagans were “filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” (Rom. 1:29-31)

But now they are to walk in the light. A wholly new way of life is held forth to them, in concord with their created nature. So Paul preached to pagans what Jesus preached to the Jews.

Maybe someone at The Times might deign to read the Bible once in a while?
I've posted here many times that the church doesn't condemn homosexuals only the act, like any sex outside marriage ... it's a sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Gays and the Catholic Church.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:44 am 
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After ~1500+ years it makes sense the organization would have accumulated some internally inconsistent or even self-destructive principles.

If memory serves, the "celibate priests" facade was one which was erected in the middle ages during the churches formative stages and essentially in response to pressure from one or the other secular rulers: you need to impose this, or we will put you out of business. It has nothing at all to do with christianness and everything to do with keeping the organization alive. I believe Jesus was offered similar opportunities to change his tune and save his skin, but he opted to die on principle.

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 Post subject: Re: Gays and the Catholic Church.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
After ~1500+ years it makes sense the organization would have accumulated some internally inconsistent or even self-destructive principles.

If memory serves, the "celibate priests" facade was one which was erected in the middle ages during the churches formative stages and essentially in response to pressure from one or the other secular rulers: you need to impose this, or we will put you out of business. It has nothing at all to do with christianness and everything to do with keeping the organization alive. I believe Jesus was offered similar opportunities to change his tune and save his skin, but he opted to die on principle.
Ok, why celibacy?

First the Bible:
Quote:
8 Bible Verses about
Celibacy
Most Relevant Verses
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Celibacy
Matthew 19:10-12

The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
1 Corinthians 7:32
Verse Concepts

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
1 Corinthians 7:1
Verse Concepts

Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1 Corinthians 7:7
Verse Concepts

Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
Theasaurus: Celibacy

Celibacy (1 instance)

More Verses on Celibacy
1 Corinthians 7:26
Verse Concepts

I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is.
1 Timothy 3:2
Verse Concepts

An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1 Timothy 4:1-3

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
Revelation 14:4
Verse Concepts

These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
From Thematic Bible

Stoicism » Paul teaches » Celibacy
1 Corinthians 7:39-40

A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 7:1-9

Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. read more.
1 Corinthians 7:25-26

Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy. I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is.
1 Corinthians 7:32-33

But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
As for the history; Wiki sez Celibacy has been around since long before Christianity, as for christianity, Wiki again sez early on around 300ad hermits moved to the desert to practice their faith.

IIRC from youth was that hermits evolved into monasteries which is a celibate style. There was also the main group of Christians who included the early fathers, celibacy was practiced by many of the leaders, not all.

Then Christianity became the state religion and families found another way to fame and fortune, Christianity stopped being the religion of the masses and became the religion of elite. As Rodney Stark sez '... it split in two; the religion of the pious and the religion of the worldly...' and has continued thru to today.

What's that to do with celibacy, I'll explain; as the years passed the church would go through periods of pious control (reform) and worldly control (Secular), nepotism was common even to the papacy itself. Finally "The Second Lateran Council (1139) seems to have enacted the first written law making sacred orders a diriment impediment to marriage for the universal Church."[62] Celibacy was first required of some clerics in 1123 at the First Lateran Council. Because clerics resisted it, the celibacy mandate was restated at the Second Lateran Council (1139) and the Council of Trent (1545–64).[66]" It's been like this since, with calls for change but overall most agree the pluses outweigh the minuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Gays and the Catholic Church.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:46 am 
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Gays and the church was what this thread was about but it was side tracked to celibacy.

Monsignor Pope says a majority of the cases involving sexual abuse involve priest with same-sex attraction. He says men who have a tendency towards their same-sex should not continue in the seminary.

He sez; it's foolish to put gays in a male rich environment like the the priesthood.

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 Post subject: Re: Gays and the Catholic Church.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:00 pm 
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abradley wrote:
He sez; it's foolish to put gays in a male rich environment like the the priesthood.


I imagine the Catholic Church has long been an escape route for (some) gays - both men and women that is - who wanted to get out of the whole family deal...


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 Post subject: Re: Gays and the Catholic Church.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:45 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
I imagine the Catholic Church has long been an escape route for (some) gays - both men and women that is - who wanted to get out of the whole family deal...
Yes, even when I was young we assumed many Priests and Nuns were gay.

But now there seems to be a Gay mafia controlling the church.

Here is a summary of Rod Dreher's reading of the situation:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... uncovered/

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