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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:08 pm 
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There is some disagreement



But what is hell?

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:13 am 
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nero wrote:
Thanks Andy.

And I am certain that nothing essential was lost in translation or copying.

But I am more interested about the invention of the Hell, originally Helviti. Jesus, as a Jew was talking about Gehenna which was not a place of torture and suffering according the Jewish tradition.

I think that Hell is the greatest corruption of Christian religion. ;)
I only know what the early fathers say Jesus said:
Quote:
The Hell There Is!
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The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14). ...

(Continued)
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is
and:
Quote:
Catholic Straight Answers

Home
About
RCIA

Does hell exist?

Sacred Scripture clearly attests to a place of eternal damnation called hell or sometimes referred to as Gehenna. Examples include the following: Jesus said that the angry man who holds his brother in contempt “risks the fires of Gehenna” (Matthew 5:22). Our Lord warned, “Do not fear those who deprive the body of life but cannot destroy the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna” (Matthew 10:28). Jesus said, “If your hand is your difficulty, cut it off! Better for you to enter life maimed than to keep both hands and enter Gehenna with its unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43). Using a parable of the weeds and the wheat to describe the final judgment, Jesus foretold, “The angels will hurl [the evildoers] into the fiery furnace where they will wail and grind their teeth” (Matthew 13:42). Similarly, when Jesus spoke of the last judgment where the sheep will be separated from the goats, He will say to the wicked, “Out of my sight, you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!” (Matthew 25:41). Finally, in the Book of Revelation, each person is judged individually and the evildoers are cast into “the fiery pool of burning sulphur, the second death” (Revelation 20:13-14; 21:8).

Just for clarification, Gehenna was a valley south of Jerusalem which was infamous for pagan sacrifices of children by fire. The prophet Jeremiah cursed the place and predicted it would be a place of death and corruption. In later rabbinic literature, the term identified the place of eternal punishment with tortures and unquenchable fire for the wicked.

Therefore, the Church has consistently taught that hell indeed exists. Those souls who die in a state of mortal sin immediately descend to eternal punishment in hell. The punishment of hell is primarily the eternal separation from God. Here one suffers the sense of loss– the loss of God’s love, the loss of life with God, and the loss of happiness: True love, life, and happiness are rooted in God, and each person longs for them. However, only in Him will man find his fulfillment. (Cf. Catechism #1035).

The damned person also suffers pain. Given the descriptions of “fire,” the apostolic constitution Benedictus Deus (1336) of Pope Benedict XII said that the souls would “suffer the pain of hell,” and the Council of Florence (1439) decreed that the souls would be “punished with different punishments.”

(Continued)
http://catholicstraightanswers.com/does-hell-exist/

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:13 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
Thanks Andy.

And I am certain that nothing essential was lost in translation or copying.

But I am more interested about the invention of the Hell, originally Helviti. Jesus, as a Jew was talking about Gehenna which was not a place of torture and suffering according the Jewish tradition.

I think that Hell is the greatest corruption of Christian religion. ;)
I only know what the early fathers say Jesus said:
Quote:
The Hell There Is!
SHARE
AddThis Sharing ButtonsShare to Facebook121Share to TwitterShare to PrintShare to EmailShare to More113

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14). ...

(Continued)
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is
and:
Quote:
Catholic Straight Answers

Home
About
RCIA

Does hell exist?

Sacred Scripture clearly attests to a place of eternal damnation called hell or sometimes referred to as Gehenna. Examples include the following: Jesus said that the angry man who holds his brother in contempt “risks the fires of Gehenna” (Matthew 5:22). Our Lord warned, “Do not fear those who deprive the body of life but cannot destroy the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna” (Matthew 10:28). Jesus said, “If your hand is your difficulty, cut it off! Better for you to enter life maimed than to keep both hands and enter Gehenna with its unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43). Using a parable of the weeds and the wheat to describe the final judgment, Jesus foretold, “The angels will hurl [the evildoers] into the fiery furnace where they will wail and grind their teeth” (Matthew 13:42). Similarly, when Jesus spoke of the last judgment where the sheep will be separated from the goats, He will say to the wicked, “Out of my sight, you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!” (Matthew 25:41). Finally, in the Book of Revelation, each person is judged individually and the evildoers are cast into “the fiery pool of burning sulphur, the second death” (Revelation 20:13-14; 21:8).

Just for clarification, Gehenna was a valley south of Jerusalem which was infamous for pagan sacrifices of children by fire. The prophet Jeremiah cursed the place and predicted it would be a place of death and corruption. In later rabbinic literature, the term identified the place of eternal punishment with tortures and unquenchable fire for the wicked.

Therefore, the Church has consistently taught that hell indeed exists. Those souls who die in a state of mortal sin immediately descend to eternal punishment in hell. The punishment of hell is primarily the eternal separation from God. Here one suffers the sense of loss– the loss of God’s love, the loss of life with God, and the loss of happiness: True love, life, and happiness are rooted in God, and each person longs for them. However, only in Him will man find his fulfillment. (Cf. Catechism #1035).

The damned person also suffers pain. Given the descriptions of “fire,” the apostolic constitution Benedictus Deus (1336) of Pope Benedict XII said that the souls would “suffer the pain of hell,” and the Council of Florence (1439) decreed that the souls would be “punished with different punishments.”

(Continued)
http://catholicstraightanswers.com/does-hell-exist/

Jesus did not speak nothing much about the Hell at all, being a Jew. Nor did the other apostles than John.

The Jewish word gehennom, gehenna described a place where the wrongdoers go after death. But gehenna was not for forever, but for twelve months and every Sabbath was a holiday. Kind of Jewish limited time purgatory.

One mus understand the Jews had originally so much thought about the afterworld. But then after some setbacks they started to develop ideas that well behaving people might get their reward after death. And Jesus developed the idea even further. Who accept the Lord are going to a better place after the death.

No other evangelist that John writes about the eternal fire and torment for those who don't accept the Jesus and his father g-d.

I think the original corruptor was John. And the catholic church developed the idea for crowd control when in power.

And the word hell comes from the germanic word helviti; the place where people go after death, expect those heroic warriors who go to valhalla. So the catholic church made for the purgatory from the jewish gehenna and invented hell to scare people shitless.

Talk about corruption. :roll:

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:44 pm 
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nero wrote:
Jesus did not speak nothing much about the Hell at all, being a Jew. Nor did the other apostles than John.

The Jewish word gehennom, gehenna described a place where the wrongdoers go after death. But gehenna was not for forever, but for twelve months and every Sabbath was a holiday. Kind of Jewish limited time purgatory.

One mus understand the Jews had originally so much thought about the afterworld. But then after some setbacks they started to develop ideas that well behaving people might get their reward after death. And Jesus developed the idea even further. Who accept the Lord are going to a better place after the death.

No other evangelist that John writes about the eternal fire and torment for those who don't accept the Jesus and his father g-d.

I think the original corruptor was John. And the catholic church developed the idea for crowd control when in power.

And the word hell comes from the germanic word helviti; the place where people go after death, expect those heroic warriors who go to valhalla. So the catholic church made for the purgatory from the jewish gehenna and invented hell to scare people shitless.

Talk about corruption. :roll:
As far as your view that Hell is temporary ... I hope your right

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:51 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
Jesus did not speak nothing much about the Hell at all, being a Jew. Nor did the other apostles than John.

The Jewish word gehennom, gehenna described a place where the wrongdoers go after death. But gehenna was not for forever, but for twelve months and every Sabbath was a holiday. Kind of Jewish limited time purgatory.

One mus understand the Jews had originally so much thought about the afterworld. But then after some setbacks they started to develop ideas that well behaving people might get their reward after death. And Jesus developed the idea even further. Who accept the Lord are going to a better place after the death.

No other evangelist that John writes about the eternal fire and torment for those who don't accept the Jesus and his father g-d.

I think the original corruptor was John. And the catholic church developed the idea for crowd control when in power.

And the word hell comes from the germanic word helviti; the place where people go after death, expect those heroic warriors who go to valhalla. So the catholic church made for the purgatory from the jewish gehenna and invented hell to scare people shitless.

Talk about corruption. :roll:
As far as your view that Hell is temporary ... I hope your right

As soon as the gold in the casket rings, the rescued soul to heaven springs. -- Johann Tetzel

But Ning would not agree. ;)

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:53 pm 
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nero wrote:
As soon as the gold in the casket rings, the rescued soul to heaven springs. -- Johann Tetzel

But Ning would not agree. ;)
Ah yes, now your changing the subject to indulgences, they didn't/don't apply to people in hell.

Quote:
...
The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".[2]

The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specific good works.

Indulgences were introduced to allow for the remission of the severe penances of the early Church and granted at the intercession of Christians awaiting martyrdom or at least imprisoned for the faith.[3] They draw on the treasury of merit accumulated by Christ's superabundantly meritorious sacrifice on the cross and the virtues and penances of the saints.[4] They are granted for specific good works and prayers[4] in proportion to the devotion with which those good works are performed or prayers recited.[5]

By the late Middle Ages, the abuse of indulgences, mainly through commercialization, had become a serious problem which the Church recognized but was unable to restrain effectively. Indulgences were, from the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, a target of attacks by Martin Luther and all other Protestant theologians. Eventually the Catholic Counter-Reformation curbed the excesses, but indulgences continue to play a role in modern Catholic religious life. Reforms in the 20th century largely abolished the quantification of indulgences, which had been expressed in terms of days or years. These days or years were meant to represent the equivalent of time spent in penance, although it was widely taken to mean time spent in Purgatory. The reforms also greatly reduced the number of indulgences granted for visiting particular churches and other locations.
(Continued)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
There's the story of a guy who asked a monk who was notorious for selling indulgences if he could buy an indulgence for a future sin, the monk said 'Yes' and the guy bought one. That nite the monk was attacked and beaten severely by the same guy ... no problem, he had the indulgence.

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History is just one damn thing after another.
ODTAA


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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
As soon as the gold in the casket rings, the rescued soul to heaven springs. -- Johann Tetzel

But Ning would not agree. ;)
Ah yes, now your changing the subject to indulgences, they didn't/don't apply to people in hell.

Quote:
...
The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".[2]

The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specific good works.

Indulgences were introduced to allow for the remission of the severe penances of the early Church and granted at the intercession of Christians awaiting martyrdom or at least imprisoned for the faith.[3] They draw on the treasury of merit accumulated by Christ's superabundantly meritorious sacrifice on the cross and the virtues and penances of the saints.[4] They are granted for specific good works and prayers[4] in proportion to the devotion with which those good works are performed or prayers recited.[5]

By the late Middle Ages, the abuse of indulgences, mainly through commercialization, had become a serious problem which the Church recognized but was unable to restrain effectively. Indulgences were, from the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, a target of attacks by Martin Luther and all other Protestant theologians. Eventually the Catholic Counter-Reformation curbed the excesses, but indulgences continue to play a role in modern Catholic religious life. Reforms in the 20th century largely abolished the quantification of indulgences, which had been expressed in terms of days or years. These days or years were meant to represent the equivalent of time spent in penance, although it was widely taken to mean time spent in Purgatory. The reforms also greatly reduced the number of indulgences granted for visiting particular churches and other locations.
(Continued)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
There's the story of a guy who asked a monk who was notorious for selling indulgences if he could buy an indulgence for a future sin, the monk said 'Yes' and the guy bought one. That nite the monk was attacked and beaten severely by the same guy ... no problem, he had the indulgence.

:lol:

And you are a true believer. But then what is your faith? :lol:

But then the paleo-jews, old jews didn't much care about the afterworld, they got their promised land on this world. But after they lost it came the ideas of the coming heavenly world. Jesus came in the process.

And the catholic church and the system it supported eagerly supported the idea of suffering in this world in anticipation of a reward in the world after death. A cunning plan for those having all the benefits on this side.

And how is it different in the current world? :roll:

Amen.

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:38 am 
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nero wrote:
:lol:

And you are a true believer. But then what is your faith? :lol:

But then the paleo-jews, old jews didn't much care about the afterworld, they got their promised land on this world. But after they lost it came the ideas of the coming heavenly world. Jesus came in the process.

And the catholic church and the system it supported eagerly supported the idea of suffering in this world in anticipation of a reward in the world after death. A cunning plan for those having all the benefits on this side.

And how is it different in the current world? :roll:

Amen.
duh?

How is what different? The fact that earlier religions had little punishment for sinning and as they matured the people were expected to follow rules..

IIRC the Romans were fine with pedophilia, as long as it was a slave, a daughter or son was considered poor form but not prosecutable. Now the people of Rome consider pedophilia a major crime.

We evolved.

Even religion evolved.

What is a sin, imho; knowingly acting against God's rules.

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History is just one damn thing after another.
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