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 Post subject: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:33 am 
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How do scholars verify ancient texts?


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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:09 am 
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abradley wrote:
How do scholars verify ancient texts?


A shorter, executive summary would be nice. I ain't gonna spend 106 minutes to find out it is just normal mumbo-jumbo to tell that the Catholic Church has the absolute truth and the Pope is always right, expect this current apostata who even denies the existence of hell.

So give me a short version in your own words. ;)

Corrupt me.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:43 pm 
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nero wrote:
A shorter, executive summary would be nice. I ain't gonna spend 106 minutes to find out it is just normal mumbo-jumbo to tell that the Catholic Church has the absolute truth and the Pope is always right, expect this current apostata who even denies the existence of hell.

So give me a short version in your own words. ;)

Corrupt me.
A short 'executive' answer is we don't have the original manuscripts or even 2nd, 3rd generation copies of the originals, but we've got other means to reconstruct the New Testament, watch the video and see how.

And stop jumping to conclusions, to my knowledge Dan Wallace ain't catholic, nor is there anything protestant/catholic in the video, just info on how they verify ancient texts.

If you want shorter version of the corruption question try but my opening comment was "How do scholars verify ancient texts?"

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Do you know the Carthagian Unitarians? There was a real power struggle over which way Christianity would evolve in the early centuries.

They held the First Council of Nicaea, where Arianism was denounced as heresy but not before being strongly defended by those that viewed it as the truth.

In the end, the matter was solved through warfare. The pro-Arianist forces were outmaneuvered by expedition from Rome leading to purging of Arianism and the destruction of the military might that supporter Arianism.

Looking at these things it's hard to take any of the dogmas seriously. Then again, Catholics did and refused to tolerate any alternatives and if their dogmas changed then they believed in them and murdered anyone who "offended" them by saying otherwise or "ridiculing" this attitude that there is only one truth, whatever it was for them at the time and that everyone else are blasphemers and heretics and that it was "merciful" to torture them to recant their heresy so their soul could be saved - for no amount of bodily suffering could possibly compare to the salvation of the everlasting soul.

As such I do find the study to the Church history and Biblical history to be interesting. It's incredibly significant, it's only the most influential and powerful set of beliefs in all of human history which still continues to mold how much of the world thinks, feels and acts.

In fact we might still have things like slavery and we wouldn't have anything in the semblance of modern welfare societies or the advanced Western nations without Christianity.

It is the religion that shapes the country, not the country that shapes the religion. Just look at how countries all that share a religion tend to be in very similar situations.

It is also interesting to note that the Catholic zeal and "taking seriously" as opposed to things like Lutheran "it's the thought that counts" is superior mechanism for the continued existence of the religion. For no religion can stand the test of time by being exceedingly tolerant of others and less than serious about it's dogmas and conventions. Wimps don't become top dogs - certainty, regardless of where it stems from conquers uncertainty and ambiguity.

This is why Catholicism is doing so well and Lutheran Church is slowly setting itself into a grave it has dug for itself.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:37 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Do you know the Carthagian Unitarians? There was a real power struggle over which way Christianity would evolve in the early centuries.

They held the First Council of Nicaea, where Arianism was denounced as heresy but not before being strongly defended by those that viewed it as the truth.

In the end, the matter was solved through warfare. The pro-Arianist forces were outmaneuvered by expedition from Rome leading to purging of Arianism and the destruction of the military might that supporter Arianism.

Looking at these things it's hard to take any of the dogmas seriously. Then again, Catholics did and refused to tolerate any alternatives and if their dogmas changed then they believed in them and murdered anyone who "offended" them by saying otherwise or "ridiculing" this attitude that there is only one truth, whatever it was for them at the time and that everyone else are blasphemers and heretics and that it was "merciful" to torture them to recant their heresy so their soul could be saved - for no amount of bodily suffering could possibly compare to the salvation of the everlasting soul.

As such I do find the study to the Church history and Biblical history to be interesting. It's incredibly significant, it's only the most influential and powerful set of beliefs in all of human history which still continues to mold how much of the world thinks, feels and acts.

In fact we might still have things like slavery and we wouldn't have anything in the semblance of modern welfare societies or the advanced Western nations without Christianity.

It is the religion that shapes the country, not the country that shapes the religion. Just look at how countries all that share a religion tend to be in very similar situations.

It is also interesting to note that the Catholic zeal and "taking seriously" as opposed to things like Lutheran "it's the thought that counts" is superior mechanism for the continued existence of the religion. For no religion can stand the test of time by being exceedingly tolerant of others and less than serious about it's dogmas and conventions. Wimps don't become top dogs - certainty, regardless of where it stems from conquers uncertainty and ambiguity.

This is why Catholicism is doing so well and Lutheran Church is slowly setting itself into a grave it has dug for itself.
The church was constantly fending off Heresies through out it's history. Some would die out for a while like Gnosticism and reappear later in slightly different form. I believe the Dan Brown books are preaching a form of Gnosticism. Many of them were originally pagan beliefs that were incorporated into the Christian doctrine. I ain't qualified to debate the right or wrongs of them. But will say this, since Arianism sez:
Quote:
Beginnings

The early history of the controversy must be pieced together from about 35 documents found in various sources. The Trinitarian historian Socrates of Constantinople reports that Arius first became controversial under the bishop Alexander of Alexandria, when Arius formulated the following syllogism: "If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing".

Bishop Alexander of Alexandria was criticised for his slow reaction against Arius. Like his predecessor Dionysius, he has been charged with vacillation. The question that Arius raised had been left unsettled two generations previously. Therefore, Alexander allowed the controversy to continue until he felt that it had become dangerous to the peace of the Church. Then he called a council of bishops and sought their advice. Once they decided against Arius, Alexander delayed no longer. He deposed Arius from his office and excommunicated him as well as his supporters.
and John 1:1 starts with "King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." which sez he was God from the get-go. :roll: But that doesn't matter to me, believe in Christianity and Catholicism because of it's good works, as you pointed out.

Now to your other point, the state of Christianity world wide. Where christian leaders have bowed to PC demands, the attendance has fallen. Where the leaders have stood firm, like evangelicals, the congregation has grown.

Am mainly basing my views on Rodney Stark and David P. Goldman. Neither are practicing Christians.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Local Lutheran devout believer and teacher of Lutheran faith said it best - "when we extend the walls due to satisfy external demands, we eventually have to stretch them so far that the ceiling comes down - what is such a Church? What relevance has a Church or any other group that has no walls, no definition"

That's a broader problem with Western apologism and self loathing. Everything is so diluted, even your own national flags and symbols are being shunned and under siege by neo-Marxist crowd.

As for the main topic, we will never truly know the full extent of how much the scripture has changed but Bible Studies in university under theology have the latest historical research to all the changes, modifications, reductions and additions that we are aware of. Friend who is a priest said that they went to such depths with the studies and disassembly that some that had entered with "child's faith" lost their faith or entered periods of self doubt and shock. He also noted that from such a trial one either entirely loses faith or comes back with the faith built on more stable foundations that those of a child's.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Catholics were themselves heretics and splitters originally, I mean there's a reason why the 'Orthodox' church is so named.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:32 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
A shorter, executive summary would be nice. I ain't gonna spend 106 minutes to find out it is just normal mumbo-jumbo to tell that the Catholic Church has the absolute truth and the Pope is always right, expect this current apostata who even denies the existence of hell.

So give me a short version in your own words. ;)

Corrupt me.
A short 'executive' answer is we don't have the original manuscripts or even 2nd, 3rd generation copies of the originals, but we've got other means to reconstruct the New Testament, watch the video and see how.

And stop jumping to conclusions, to my knowledge Dan Wallace ain't catholic, nor is there anything protestant/catholic in the video, just info on how they verify ancient texts.

If you want shorter version of the corruption question try but my opening comment was "How do scholars verify ancient texts?"

Thanks Andy.

And I am certain that nothing essential was lost in translation or copying.

But I am more interested about the invention of the Hell, originally Helviti. Jesus, as a Jew was talking about Gehenna which was not a place of torture and suffering according the Jewish tradition.

I think that Hell is the greatest corruption of Christian religion. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:01 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
Catholics were themselves heretics and splitters originally, I mean there's a reason why the 'Orthodox' church is so named.
:lol: What about the Coptics, do they think they are the true church and the Orthodox and Catholic are heretics?

Quote:
The Americanization of an Ancient Faith

The 2,000-year-old Coptic Church is trying something new: spreading its message across the United States—and the rest of the world.
Five boys lean on a wooden pew at a Coptic Orthodox church.

Shira Telushkin Mar 31, 2018 Politics


Subscribe to The Atlantic’s Politics & Policy Daily, a roundup of ideas and events in American politics.

One day in the fall of 2010, Father Anthony Messeh, then a priest at the St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church in Fairfax, Virginia, sat down with a list of names. There were 30 individuals—all American converts with no Egyptian heritage—who had been baptized at the church since his arrival in 2001. Of the group, only eight were still active members.

“That just broke my heart,” Messeh told me one afternoon last summer. “If one or two people had left, then maybe I could say it was something wrong with them. But if 22 out of 30 had left, that meant it’s something wrong with me.”

One American couple who’d left the congregation told him that while the church felt like a family, it didn’t feel like their family. St. Mark’s, like many of the over 250 Coptic churches in the United States, is overwhelmingly comprised of Copts raised in Egypt or born to Egyptian parents. Of the nearly 6,000 members of the church, most still converse comfortably in Arabic, and the services retain Egyptian cultural norms: Men and women tend to sit separately, people move around freely during prayers, and Egyptian food is often served.
....
(Continued)
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ch/555515/

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:08 pm 
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How about the Hell, Andy? ;)

No corruption there. :lol:

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