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 Post subject: Uncommon Knowledge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:05 am 
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Worth a watch

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon Knowledge
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:26 am 
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abradley wrote:

I listened this.

And got the idea what is the difference of genocide and ethnic cleansing. With genocide you want the kill the others because they the others, with ethnic cleansing you want the things the others are having and you want; hence you remove the others.

But then it reality things are nor so simple, there can be outright genocide like the Romans killing of the Carthaginians, Nazi Endlösung and such. But then in reality things are blurred, Nazis did not kill all Jews, Romans did not kill all Punics. More often ethnic cleansing and genocide are practically identical, the others are displaced and marginalized. This happened in the New World and Australia, and is currently happening in the Palestine.

OTOH the term of ethnic cleansing is limited to ethnicity, excluding religion, social class or other forms of otherness. So to make more abstract ethic cleansing and genocide can be combined together, and recognizing the various degrees of otherness, violence and wrongdoing applied.

As a more personal notion, Naimark mentions the war in Yugoslavia. I was travelling in Athens Express from Hamburg through Yugoslavia 1977; Tito was alive, and the country was communist. But I was observing a strong nationalistic sentiment among the young Serbs I discussed with. The nationalistic pathos was something I was not used in my home country, and the hostility to the other in the federation. The Serbs were oppressed because they were unfairly denied dominance in the federation. This sentiment was abused by Milosevic more than decade later. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon Knowledge
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:52 pm 
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The bacterial infections in New World were the biggest killer. By the time most of the indigenous population was wiped out and entire civilizations had collapsed Europeans were still only just getting started.

As for the remainder of the conflicts, the Natives tried to genocide the Europeans but due to the recent collapse of population and societies were unable to do so when facing unending stream of immigration and superior technology, not limited to weapons but superior governance, superior organization, logistics, centralized governance etc.

While the Natives themselves were genocidal towards each other but often stuck due to being more or less equally matched, many tribes found a boon from allying themselves with the Newcomers - gaining weapons, wealth and allies to tip the balance and allow them to utterly annihilate their rivals.

When you think that Europeans were genocidal, you should read of the Horse Lords or Lords of the Southern Planes, the Comanche.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Plummer

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In her account of her life among the Comanche, Rachel wrote that six weeks after giving birth to a healthy son, the warriors decided she was slowed too much by childcare, and threw her son down on the ground. When he stopped moving, they left her to bury him. When she revived him, they returned and tied the infant to a rope, and dragged him through cactuses until the frail, tiny body was literally torn to pieces.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396760/How-Comanche-Indians-butchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html

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The 16-year-old girl’s once-beautiful face was grotesque.
...
‘Her head, arms and face were full of bruises and sores,’ wrote one witness, Mary Maverick. ‘And her nose was actually burnt off to the bone. Both nostrils were wide open and denuded of flesh.’

Once handed over, Matilda Lockhart broke down as she described the horrors she had endured — the rape, the relentless sexual humiliation and the way Comanche women had tortured her with fire. It wasn’t just her nose, her thin body was hideously scarred all over with burns.

When she mentioned she thought there were 15 other white captives at the Indians’ camp, all of them being subjected to a similar fate, the Texan lawmakers and officials said they were detaining the Comanche chiefs while they rescued the others.

It was a decision that prompted one of the most brutal slaughters in the history of the Wild West — and showed just how bloodthirsty the Comanche could be in revenge.


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They were infamous for their inventive tortures, and women were usually in charge of the torture process.

The Comanche roasted captive American and Mexican soldiers to death over open fires. Others were castrated and scalped while alive. The most agonising Comanche tortures included burying captives up to the chin and cutting off their eyelids so their eyes were seared by the burning sun before they starved to death.


I really recommend you to read some American history before making any notions about their past.

Texans still call full Moon 'Comanche Moon'.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon Knowledge
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
The bacterial infections in New World were the biggest killer. By the time most of the indigenous population was wiped out and entire civilizations had collapsed Europeans were still only just getting started.

As for the remainder of the conflicts, the Natives tried to genocide the Europeans but due to the recent collapse of population and societies were unable to do so when facing unending stream of immigration and superior technology, not limited to weapons but superior governance, superior organization, logistics, centralized governance etc.

While the Natives themselves were genocidal towards each other but often stuck due to being more or less equally matched, many tribes found a boon from allying themselves with the Newcomers - gaining weapons, wealth and allies to tip the balance and allow them to utterly annihilate their rivals.

When you think that Europeans were genocidal, you should read of the Horse Lords or Lords of the Southern Planes, the Comanche.

<....snip...>

I really recommend you to read some American history before making any notions about their past.

Texans still call full Moon 'Comanche Moon'.



While the Comanche were famous for brutality against everyone, including other tribes, they weren't the only ones to do it. Just the ones left holding a sizable portion of the bag since they were still at it late into the 19th century.

The modern and one-sided "noble savage" romanticism being briefly taught in schools today has removed most mentions of these things from the curriculum. I recall, nearly three decades ago in a small town public school system, it was given some mention, along with the rest. Now it's been sanitized.

While widespread deadly disease has supporting historical accounts in the Spanish conquests of central america, there isn't much, if anything, to show it had the same effect further north in the modern US & Canada. I regularly see people claiming massive numbers of diseased dead for them all, as a whole, without supporting evidence it happened to the northern tribes on such a scale.

There's a trend of those wrongly attributing all kinds of Spanish colonial atrocities to the northern europeans who settled in North America. The "knowingly giving diseased blankets" falsehood is one widespread example. Wholesale enslavement of natives for hard labor is another. The others were actually hostile towards Spain for most of that period, especially the British.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon Knowledge
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:17 am 
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Spanish and Portuguese actually largely intermixed with the natives, preserving much of the population that survived the diseases.

And it is correct that diseases hit settled down and densely populated civilizations a lot harder than they hit roaming nomads. Nomads see another tribe closing in, signaling "barter". By the time they catch them dropping noses and body parts they will call the offer off and fire a volley of two of arrows at them and stick the fuck clear of them.

Quite different from a trade caravan or bunch of farmers bringing their goods to a marketplace and then dropping dead after selling half their merchandise.


And of course many of the Comanche attacks are actually enacted by other tribes - it was the infamy of Comanche that caused many people to refer to all attacks as Comanche attacks. For many it was just the way they understood it - savages attack you, you were attacked by Comanche, even if it were another tribe. They didn't exactly have flags and other identifiers about them like Europeans did or those cute little colored flags that Japanese used at the time.


The very first encounter with Native Americans set the pace for every future encounter. Columbus finds a nice and peaceful tribe, almost like jungle hippies. He thinks "very nice" and leaves some men (iirc ~90?) behind to prepare a settlement and returns to Europe to prepare another expedition. Once he comes back the men are nowhere to be found and all the natives are giving them is "uh, what Europeans? I don't remember anything" accompanied by innocent-like whistling.

One of the rare movies that isn't complete Hollywood neo-Marxist bullshit on the topic is 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee', where the Native Americans actually have characteristic flaws as opposed to being Mary Sue Noble Savages trying to invent the cure for cancer.

Conquest of Paradise wasn't all that bad either, showing that from the early days of colonization it was not going to be smooth ride and cuddles and hugs. Europeans were of course with their own mindset and Natives with theirs and they conflicted brutally. It isn't a story where we must find saints though for modern Americans their ancestors did what they had to do or the modern descendants wouldn't even exist and the whole place would be less than a third world shithole, some sort of Siberia but with less civilization and more roaming genocidal warlords.

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