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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Lansareth (see The Longest Winter, Alex Kershaw), Bastogne (probably don't need to provide a reference for that) a bunch of towns near Lansareth along the Elsenborn Ridge (Closing with the Enemy, Michael Doubler).

German sources on American armor losses are not credible, since they did not know how many vehicles were lost or under what circumstances. I find the "through February 1945" statement to be revelatory of an agenda, because if we add up German losses through February 1945 we get something like 3000 AFVs (tanks and SP assault guns/tank destroyers). Naturally, losses to the attacker tend to be higher because emplaced antitank guns are rather notoriously difficult to detect. Direct tank vs tank losses in the Ardennes both during the German attack and, during the US counteroffensive (which is less the Ardennes than it is general offensive across the whole region) are about 1:1.

What we CAN say is that on the defensive, the US performed much BETTER than German counterparts at key positions (Doubler), and that on the OFFENSIVE, the US was vastly superior at combined arms operations, with better coordination between tanks and supporting infantry on a vehicle per vehicle basis, better coordination between tanks, better coordination between infantry and artillery, and better coordination between infantry and air support. Man for man, by September 1944, Americans were much more effective at waging war than Germans.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:22 am 
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Having read a very detailed overview of *every* major German operation from 1939-1945 with force strengths, plans, etc. I can concur

- once Americans got their Air Forces in the game Germans were better off not trying to launch any attacks.

Already in Italy we can see when Germans tried to launch offensives they were spotted by recon aircraft and as the troops were lining up in attack formations they got smacked hard from the air.

That's the problem with attack formations and large offensives - packing all that manpower and material into tightly packed stretches while the enemy can hit them, not such a great idea. This is also why Finland didn't fall in 1944, because if you can hit an attack formation with enough firepower it will get absolutely torn to shreds and bloody pulp.

It's no joke trying to attack an enemy while being pounded by massive heavy artillery in the open or being rained a thunder of 500 and 1,000kg bombs on you.

The whole idea from idealistic military planning perspective would be to rain thunder on the *defensive positions* to soften them up so that your attack doesn't recoil from them. It is *NOT* to attack unmolested fortifications in the open *while under intense bombardment*.

Then again it was also shown that when both sides have heavy indirect firepower available the guys in fortified positions designed to defend against barrages tend to do better than the guys charging in the open.

If you need to attack someone who has an abundance of indirect firepower available you will know that you did afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:28 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
Lansareth (see The Longest Winter, Alex Kershaw), Bastogne (probably don't need to provide a reference for that) a bunch of towns near Lansareth along the Elsenborn Ridge (Closing with the Enemy, Michael Doubler).

German sources on American armor losses are not credible, since they did not know how many vehicles were lost or under what circumstances. I find the "through February 1945" statement to be revelatory of an agenda, because if we add up German losses through February 1945 we get something like 3000 AFVs (tanks and SP assault guns/tank destroyers). Naturally, losses to the attacker tend to be higher because emplaced antitank guns are rather notoriously difficult to detect. Direct tank vs tank losses in the Ardennes both during the German attack and, during the US counteroffensive (which is less the Ardennes than it is general offensive across the whole region) are about 1:1.

What we CAN say is that on the defensive, the US performed much BETTER than German counterparts at key positions (Doubler), and that on the OFFENSIVE, the US was vastly superior at combined arms operations, with better coordination between tanks and supporting infantry on a vehicle per vehicle basis, better coordination between tanks, better coordination between infantry and artillery, and better coordination between infantry and air support. Man for man, by September 1944, Americans were much more effective at waging war than Germans.


This is also a part of what the Russians will never forgive you over - not getting your guys slaughtered by charging up a street to a killzone until enemy runs out of ammunition.

That they somehow "won alone" because they used their soldiers as if they were human bullets to be thrown at the enemy. Whereas Americans tended to get better and better throughout the war, adding their experience to their performance, you can see Soviet units making many of the same mistakes in 1944 that they were doing in 1939 - still getting their divisions surrounded and slaughtered, misusing their resources, firing massive artillery concentrations across the map etc.

Truly the Nazis and Soviets were made for each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:28 am 
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Definitely the soviet mentality hampered their way of making war on all levels. Everything was top down. Parallel cooperation was actively discouraged... cant have company level commanders cooperating or exchanging information etc.

I marvel at the endurance of poor Russian slobs who endured the Soviet system and now endure Vlad the economic derailer. If the Russians ever somehow achieve a real democratic republic that is not run like a Congolese Cleptocracy they could have something like a golden age.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:32 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Definitely the soviet mentality hampered their way of making war on all levels. Everything was top down. Parallel cooperation was actively discouraged... cant have company level commanders cooperating or exchanging information etc.

I marvel at the endurance of poor Russian slobs who endured the Soviet system and now endure Vlad the economic derailer. If the Russians ever somehow achieve a real democratic republic that is not run like a Congolese Cleptocracy they could have something like a golden age.


I don't see them having a democratic system. What they have is Rome during Imperial era - when one guy sets in he purges all the supporters of the last ruler, which is fine for awhile until the next guy comes in and does the same.

They didn't manage to purge and assimilate all of the countless ethnicities in their area and I bet they didn't forget about what happened when they briefly tried democracy - immediately folks tried to jump ship and bail out faster than you can spell "referendum".

The only way they can actually maintain their empire is to be imperial and make sure no one gets their hopes up - they made an example of Chechnya when they bombarded their capital to ruin followed by mass rape and looting as they subsequently captured it. This is a good enough of a warning for anyone having similar ideas - even if you have Russians in the city it won't stop them from completely obliterating it.

Then again the prospects of having inclusive and non-corrupt system there, able to harness all that immense creativity that they have combined with the massive resources at their disposal.

At least they're one of the last vestiges of white people who refuse to loathe themselves over being white, sticking to nationalism and conservative values. If only their nationalism wasn't exclusive to Russians I'd put my money on them - alas, I'm left to admire their best qualities while recognizing that they will likely continue to remain the greatest existential threat to me and our people - after Islam.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:45 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
German sources on American armor losses are not credible, since they did not know how many vehicles were lost or under what circumstances.


LtCol Eddy Bauer (Swiss army) calculated the German tank (not other AFV) losses due to combat in the Ardennes to 324 - while the number of total losses where much higher, problems with fuel supply and disruption of the few tank repair units had its impact. AFAIK German sources tend to overestimate the number of tanks that were blow up by their own crews.

XLVII. Panzer-Korps is to have finished off 8-10 tanks/TDs for every similar German vehicle lost.

mdiehl wrote:
Direct tank vs tank losses in the Ardennes both during the German attack and, during the US counteroffensive (which is less the Ardennes than it is general offensive across the whole region) are about 1:1.


Nothing I have read supports this. Are you the origin of these numbers?


mdiehl wrote:
What we CAN say is that on the defensive, the US performed much BETTER than German counterparts at key positions (Doubler), and that on the OFFENSIVE, the US was vastly superior at combined arms operations, with better coordination between tanks and supporting infantry on a vehicle per vehicle basis, better coordination between tanks, better coordination between infantry and artillery, and better coordination between infantry and air support. Man for man, by September 1944, Americans were much more effective at waging war than Germans.


Nah, but they didn't have to be. They had the time, the resources and the leadership needed to win.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Tedious at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Tedious at best.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:43 am 
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Quote:
There is a bigger motivation, the mercenary claimed. "If you are fighting under a Russian flag, with a Russian weapon, even if you are eating moldy food and are 10,000 kilometers from home, you are nonetheless fighting for Russia," he said.

"There is no Syrian war," he added. "There is no Ukrainian war. There is only a war between the Russian Federation and the United States."



Quote:
"Putin just explained to everyone that they'd better get ready," he added, referring to Putin's state-of-the-nation address to the Federal Assembly on March 1. "It was a good speech and it is about time someone told them, 'enough.' I agree with it completely -- we can't play defense forever. Such a world power [as Russia] and a bunch of gays are going to tell us how things should be?"

"If we have to fight with America, we will win," he said. "They don't know how to fight. As Putin said, you can invent all sorts of missiles, but you can't invent people like we have. Our people -- they know how to sacrifice themselves."


https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-mercenaries-vagner-commanders-syria/29100402.html

Before Herbstnebel Hitler figured the Americans were a bunch of cowards. Before the Gulf War Saddam claimed the Americans would not stomach a fight "man to man"... :P


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:38 am 
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Those assessments always forget about the silent majority of US.

The left controls the media and public image of US, broadcasting an image of gay playboy nation where "regressives" are trying to stop men who pretend to be women from entering girls' bathroom and showers.

Everyone has a laugh at them and declares war thinking "oh, what are they going to do" and before they can finish the sentence there's the Rangers dropping from the sky on their backyard while Marines are hitting the shores in the wake of hellfury of the Eighth Air Force and the unseen phantoms of 509th.

Image

I could list all the countries who thought that way starting with Tripolitania or even the British who said "oh, who, the colonials? with what army? Oh dear.."

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