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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
The left controls the media and public image of US, broadcasting an image of gay playboy nation where "regressives" are trying to stop men who pretend to be women from entering girls' bathroom and showers.


Sorry - in the Russian narrative, the USA is the enemy and the gays are the Europeans.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:56 am 
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wulfir wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
The left controls the media and public image of US, broadcasting an image of gay playboy nation where "regressives" are trying to stop men who pretend to be women from entering girls' bathroom and showers.


Sorry - in the Russian narrative, the USA is the enemy and the gays are the Europeans.


Sorry - in the Swedish narrative you either let all the Islamists in or are you're a Russian spy.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:27 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Sorry - in the Swedish narrative you either let all the Islamists in or are you're a Russian spy.


Sorry - in the Swedish narrative Putin is a dictator and his elections are rigged.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:23 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
Sorry - in the Swedish narrative you either let all the Islamists in or are you're a Russian spy.


Sorry - in the Swedish narrative Putin is a dictator and his elections are rigged.

Calm down boys, this thread is supposed to about the Operation Market Garden 1944.

There are other threads about Putin, other thread about Islamists elsewhere. Give the old grognard peace. :roll:

Kamo, aseento, kaksisataa metriä taakse p'stu!!!

Wulfie, stay on the topic of the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Germans had no panzers in Arnhem?

Image
A German Pzkpfw IV Knocked Out by Arnhem Bridge, 1944. A number of Pzkpfw IV were deployed by the German Army in Arnhem and at least 2 were destroyed by Airborne Forces, including a well photographed example by the bridge itself. This was hit a number of times and appears to have a hole in the lower front plate from a 6 Pdr and a number of PIAT hits from Lt Barnett of the Defence Platoon, 1st Parachute Brigade.

Image
Tiger Ausf B knocked out on Wever Straat, Arnhem, 1944. This Tiger Ausf B was knocked out by Lt Donaldson and LBdr Dickson of the 1st Airlanding Light Regiment RA on 25 September 1944. They first used a 6Pdr Anti Tank Gun (which proved ineffective), before moving onto a 75mm Pack Howitzer (fring 6 shots which set the tank on fire, before jamming), and then finished off the destruction with a few rounds from a PIAT.

Fakt Jo? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:00 pm 
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von Tippelskirch himself wrote that Germans had tanks in Arnhem. He specifically noted that the Allied paratroopers suffered heavily because of they were lacking in heavy weapons to deal with tanks.

Note that even if you have superiority in armor and the enemy is lacking in AT you can't just run over them all the since you risk suddenly losing a lot of tanks to point blank methods.

For one all you need is some fire to take out a tank.

The paratroopers weren't without AT weapons and that helped them avoid being completely squashed but the troops sustaining the brunt of the attack *were* largely annihilated.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:09 pm 
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BRING UP THE PIAT

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:38 pm 
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nero wrote:
Germans had no panzers in Arnhem?


II. SS Panzer-Korps was previously mentioned. It is the unit the figures prominently in the movie A Bridge too Far.

On the eve of Market Garden:

SS Pz-Rgt 19
- - I. Abteilung, 450 troops, no tanks
- - II. Abteilung (dissolved)

SS Pz-Rgt 20
- - I. Abteilung (dissolved)
- - II. Abteilung, 200 troops, probably no tanks - some sources claim about 20 Pz IV but this is contested as false or case of tanks not in running condition as they appear not to have made much of a show during the first three days.

Both divisions included a handful of other armoured vehicles - half tracks, armoured cars, SPAA, tank destroyers etc. Both were greatly reduced in strength.

Kompanie Mielke of KG Knaust managed to get two Panzer IV in action against the Brits at Arnhem in the September 18 counterattack. Both were lost.

There were also a number of training tanks (older models) and ex French Beute-Panzers in the region. None in such numbers that they motivated Market Garden being cancelled.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:47 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
Germans had no panzers in Arnhem?


II. SS Panzer-Korps was previously mentioned. It is the unit the figures prominently in the movie A Bridge too Far.

On the eve of Market Garden:

SS Pz-Rgt 19
- - I. Abteilung, 450 troops, no tanks
- - II. Abteilung (dissolved)

SS Pz-Rgt 20
- - I. Abteilung (dissolved)
- - II. Abteilung, 200 troops, probably no tanks - some sources claim about 20 Pz IV but this is contested as false or case of tanks not in running condition as they appear not to have made much of a show during the first three days.

Both divisions included a handful of other armoured vehicles - half tracks, armoured cars, SPAA, tank destroyers etc. Both were greatly reduced in strength.

Kompanie Mielke of KG Knaust managed to get two Panzer IV in action against the Brits at Arnhem in the September 18 counterattack. Both were lost.

There were also a number of training tanks (older models) and ex French Beute-Panzers in the region. None in such numbers that they motivated Market Garden being cancelled.

What when wrong then, the Brits should have taken the Arnhem bridge at ease? Like in Normandy the Pegasus bridge. :roll:

OTOH how on earth did the German manage to lose a Königstiger to paratroopers? :roll:

Very poor tactics, obviously in close terrain without infantry support.

PS. My training was not with tanks but against thanks; PST. I can see the gift.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:54 pm 
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nero wrote:
What when wrong then, the Brits should have taken the Arnhem bridge at ease?


Friction of war. Urquhart delayed the British advance. Helmut Buttlar's squad held up 2 Para long enough for the Germans to detonate the railway bridge. 3 Para stopping in Oosterbeek instead of advancing down Utrechtsweg where they might have bagged both Spindler and Bittrich...

The Arnhem road bridge was ocupied by Germans willing to fight just before Frost got there. Those Germans had met other demoralised German troops streaming out of Arnhem...


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