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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:41 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
That was a fantastic scene in the movie....the recon unit trying to cross the bridge. The PIAT charges were incredibly short range. You could see the thing arcing down within a few meters....I presume that was accurate.




100 yards max range, it'd be arcing onto the target at that sort of range though. I imagine a bazooka wasn't exactly accurate and effective beyond (very) short range either, Patton was recommending 30 meters.

I think it's a bit unfairly maligned tbh though it was a stopgap measure using a dead end technology. There was a survey after WW2 among Canadian soldiers where they were asked which weapon they liked the most, and the PIAT came top, so for some guys who actually had to use the thing actually really liked it, perhaps incomprehensibly in 2018. Bottom line, it definitely worked, and it definitely killed contemporary tanks, which I guess is the main thing - especially when the alternative is harsh language, or sticky bombs or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:47 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
jack t ripper wrote:
That was a fantastic scene in the movie....the recon unit trying to cross the bridge. The PIAT charges were incredibly short range. You could see the thing arcing down within a few meters....I presume that was accurate.




100 yards max range, it'd be arcing onto the target at that sort of range though. I imagine a bazooka wasn't exactly accurate and effective beyond (very) short range either, Patton was recommending 30 meters.

I think it's a bit unfairly maligned tbh though it was a stopgap measure using a dead end technology. There was a survey after WW2 among Canadian soldiers where they were asked which weapon they liked the most, and the PIAT came top, so for some guys who actually had to use the thing actually really liked it, perhaps incomprehensibly in 2018. Bottom line, it definitely worked, and it definitely killed contemporary tanks, which I guess is the main thing - especially when the alternative is harsh language, or sticky bombs or something.


It's definitely not a stopgap thing.

Want to see stopgap?



In comparison PIAT is sophisticated space age technology. I mean, look at it, the guy has to stop and ignite a match comes with the bottle, held in place by a string.

Literally, a vodka factory became an AT weapons factory overnight by adding a pair of matches and some petrol to their produce. The Soviet attitude is also priceless. "Hey, they don't have an AT gun!"

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:21 am 
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Oh yeah. Well, British troops had lots of antitank guns in 1940, no need for antitank infantry weapons then really, or so they thought anyway. But as they all got left on the beaches of Dunkirk alternatives had to be developed fast. They were using sticky bombs in 1940 after Dunkirk, fortunately I guess they didn't have to rely on those in the event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bomb

Funnily enough Molotov cocktails were apparently discussed but they thought the sticky bomb was better. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:48 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
Oh yeah. Well, British troops had lots of antitank guns in 1940, no need for antitank infantry weapons then really, or so they thought anyway. But as they all got left on the beaches of Dunkirk alternatives had to be developed fast. They were using sticky bombs in 1940 after Dunkirk, fortunately I guess they didn't have to rely on those in the event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bomb

Funnily enough Molotov cocktails were apparently discussed but they thought the sticky bomb was better. ;)


Sticky bomb was disqualified, it didn't apparently stick to mud but could stick to uniform. Then Churchill un-disqualified it for mass production.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:10 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Sticky bomb was disqualified, it didn't apparently stick to mud but could stick to uniform. Then Churchill un-disqualified it for mass production.


Yup. It worked to a point, it scored kills.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Gräbner's attack as shown in the movie everybody has seen.

It ignores the British artillery fire that hit the Germans before they came on the bridge and the support by Abn 6 pdr anti-tank guns.

Some sources claim that Gräbner rode in a captured British Humber armoured car which initially confused the paratroopers - thinking it was XXX. Corps.
Air recce photos taken after the clash show no knocked out Humber armoured car on the bridge. Some think it made it through into Arnhem, some Germans claim they saw Gräbner on foot (on the bridge) trying to make his troops go forward. Some think he might have tried to get away by jumping in the river (and then drowned/disapeared). His body was never truly identified.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:24 pm 
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wulfir wrote:


Gräbner's attack as shown in the movie everybody has seen.

It ignores the British artillery fire that hit the Germans before they came on the bridge and the support by Abn 6 pdr anti-tank guns.

Some sources claim that Gräbner rode in a captured British Humber armoured car which initially confused the paratroopers - thinking it was XXX. Corps.
Air recce photos taken after the clash show no knocked out Humber armoured car on the bridge. Some think it made it through into Arnhem, some Germans claim they saw Gräbner on foot (on the bridge) trying to make his troops go forward. Some think he might have tried to get away by jumping in the river (and then drowned/disapeared). His body was never truly identified.

Right, it was the 6 pdrs to do carnage on the bridge, Piats just lacked the range.

Arnhem Jim wrote:
The only guns to fight all the way from the landing zones to the division’s primary objective were five 6 pdrs of the 1st Airlanding Anti-Tank Battery which successfully joined LtCol John Frost’s 2nd Bn Para at the north side of the main Arnhem road bridge.They would provide what was to prove critical support in the ensuing battle at the bridge. These guns were principally credited with the complete destruction of Waffen-SS Hauptstrumführer Viktor Graebner's reconnaissance battalion at the north side of the main road bridge on 18 September. Amongst the 21 vehicles of Graebner's SS-Panzer-Aufklarungs-Abteilung 9 shown destroyed, are 8 Sd.Kfz.250/1 ‘alt’ half-tracks.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:24 pm 
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I suppose it would not have looked as cool to have at-guns destroy everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Whoa Mohammed!


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:52 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
Whoa Mohammed!

:lol:

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