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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Not enough air transport to drop the Poles on Day 1, unless something else is left out (The British landed the least amount of troops on Day 1. Browning did rob them of a bunch of gliders though to land his Corps HQ at Nijmegen).

Hindsight yeah, but arguably that should then also be taken into account on many of Monty's decisions, but it doesn't tend to be. Prudent, cautious - I guess the question really is if it was the right decision in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:13 am 
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Here's an odd movie - Theirs is the Glory - made it seems mostly by actual participants of the fighting at Arnhem, just after the end of the war...



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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Advanced Squad Leader has a Bridge Too Far campaign that I'd like to try some day. I probably don't own it yet but am not sure. Anyhow. It's Avalon Hill Historical ASL module Number 6.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:26 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTUC79o4Kmc
A good easy to understand review and yes Gavin screwed the pooch w/Brownings blessing.

But it was a bad idea to begin with.

So they took Arnham and the way was open to Germany, how were they going to support the airborne and 30 Corp with the Germans cutting their line of support.

The Allies read the Germans wrong, they weren't defeated yet.

ADDON

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f79KgQVL3MM

What was the purpose of Market Garden? A thrust into German or ...

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Gavin did no such thing. The plan required that there be no German forces positioned to react to Gavin's objectives or drop zone. German troops were in place to react to both. Indeed, a reacting German force OVERRAN Gavin's drop zone prior to the second drop. Gavin had to divert from his objective in order to secure the drop zone.

It was a shit plan, conceived and pushed even when it became clear that the plan was appalling, by Monty and his immediate subordinates. The entire purpose of the plan was to gratify Montgomery's ego.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:25 pm 
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According to Frost it wasn't Gavin but Browning who's to blame.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Browning certainly came across as a complete cock in the movie, that's for sure!

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm 
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After a failure everyone is blaming someone else. That is human nature.

What I have read about the operation Market Garden has given me the insight that tho whole whole plan was based on the assumption that the Germans were on the run, Heim ins Reich. So the drive trough Belgium and Holland was just a piece of cake, no organised resistance was not expected. So the plans were based more on who fast could the troops move, without meeting any resistance.

So I think that Garden part of the operation was victim of the usual sin of planning, choosing the absolutely shortest time of the operation to succeed. Too bad that such a policy has a zero possibility to succeed (Waltzing With Bears: Managing Risk on Software Projects). I recon that the window was open few week earlier, to organize the whole project did eat the time.

As for the Market part, the 82th and 101th did what they could. No blame to them.

Then Arnhem, the intelligence failure to notice the two SS panzer divisions on the Arnhem area. And the design error putting the landing zone too far from the main objective, the Arnhem bridge. No bravery could compensate that. And those SS panzer divisions should not have been there by the plan. I cannot really blame the British paratroopers either.

The the idea of Market Garden was brilliant, but it was based on false assumptions, that no organised resistance was expected. So the planners chose the happy day scenario, that was derailed by every incidence or mishap on the way, not to mention organised opposition on the way.

1. The Garden part was a failure by design, zero probability to succeed. Was is not fought in perfect conditions.
2. May be there was some delays with the 101th and 82th, but the British fucked up. Never mind Foster's and others bravery, the landing zones way too far from to objective; the bridge. And the other is what use is it to take just an other edge of the bridge? Yeah, the Polish, what was the time they were to be dropped.

A great idea, based on over optimistic assumptions when it was executed. But it could not have been executed earlier for logistical and such reasons. There was a chance, but when executed there was no chance.

How about Ike, on a tight rope between the two primadonnas, Patton and Monty? He chose Monty.

But there was an acute supply problem September 1944, the Allied troops were still supplied from Mulberry ports in Normandy. So strategically it would have been imperative to open a big port like Antwerp. First thing first.

So the biggest blame for the failure of Market Garden goes to General Eisenhower. He allowed the gamble. His blame is is bigger than that of the egotists like Monty and Browning. He allowed it, the gamble, not doing the first thing first.

It is easy criticize almost 79 years later. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:32 am 
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nero wrote:
After a failure everyone is blaming someone else. That is human nature.

{Snip}
Agree with most your post, but the above seems to say Frost had a stake in the game rather then being a unbiased input.

IIRC Frost and his men did their job to the bitter end, I would trust his input over anybody elses.

As for Eisenhower, he had to play politics balancing Brits, French, and Americans like a juggler, with prima donnas like Montie, De Gaulle, and Patton the balancing was difficult.



The whole show is worth a watch, shows him trying to control the egos.
https://www.cda.pl/video/59193977

Considering he did it, he must have been some kind of wizard.

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden 1944
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:48 am 
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Why does someone have to be "to blame?" Isn't warfare inherently "gambling!?"

Seems either petty, or naive to presume that any time an operation does not pull off to Schwarzkopf Level Perfection that "someone is to blame." Shit happens. You just try to make more shit happen for the other guy than for you . . .

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