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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:46 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
Well . . . 1936 is a bit LATE to steer Germany on an alternative "peaceful" path isn't it!? :)

I'd say 1920 might be a good time to start! Possibly a bit later, but certainly no later than 1929.


There are a ton of player created mods in this game (HoI 4). All the player created mods are free.

There are mods that allow you to refight WW 1 (Kaiserreich mods).
There are modern day mods (Millennium Dawn) that start with either the year 2000or 2016.

I think that their are even mods in which aliens invade earth. ;-)

And then there are many smaller mods that tinker with smaller details of the vanilla game (enhanced graphics, enhanced units, etc.).


I have been very tempted to dive in and check it out. I have found (despite my complaints about their deficiencies) Paradox titles have generally been very fun and provided plenty of hours of engagement to justify their costs. Maybe in six months or so I'll get into the game; too many irons in the fire until then.

I wanted to say the LATEST one is HoI 5? But it sounds like HoI 4 is the most recent?

You seem to like, eh Chi?

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:00 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:


I have been very tempted to dive in and check it out. I have found (despite my complaints about their deficiencies) Paradox titles have generally been very fun and provided plenty of hours of engagement to justify their costs. Maybe in six months or so I'll get into the game; too many irons in the fire until then.

I wanted to say the LATEST one is HoI 5? But it sounds like HoI 4 is the most recent?

You seem to like, eh Chi?


HoI 4 is the most recent official version.

Paradox periodically releases official DLC expansions, adding things to the game. Generally, a DLC will cost you, however, at the same time they release a paid DLC, they will also simultaneously release an upgrade patch, so you can get some free free upgrades but to get all the goodies you will need to buy the DLC.

They announced the next DLC (Waking the Tiger, which will focus on China) upgrade a few weeks ago. No release date for it but the last comment I saw in the weekly developer video was that it would be out 'after Christmas'.

I do like the game...the player mods in particular is what keeps things interesting.
I mostly play the WW2 mods, but have also played the modern Millennium Dawn mods.
I also have the WW1 mod (Kaiserreich) downloaded but have not played it yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:12 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:


I have been very tempted to dive in and check it out. I have found (despite my complaints about their deficiencies) Paradox titles have generally been very fun and provided plenty of hours of engagement to justify their costs. Maybe in six months or so I'll get into the game; too many irons in the fire until then.

I wanted to say the LATEST one is HoI 5? But it sounds like HoI 4 is the most recent?

You seem to like, eh Chi?


HoI 4 is the most recent official version.

Paradox periodically releases official DLC expansions, adding things to the game. Generally, a DLC will cost you, however, at the same time they release a paid DLC, they will also simultaneously release an upgrade patch, so you can get some free free upgrades but to get all the goodies you will need to buy the DLC.

They announced the next DLC (Waking the Tiger, which will focus on China) upgrade a few weeks ago. No release date for it but the last comment I saw in the weekly developer video was that it would be out 'after Christmas'.

I do like the game...the player mods in particular is what keeps things interesting.
I mostly play the WW2 mods, but have also played the modern Millennium Dawn mods.
I also have the WW1 mod (Kaiserreich) downloaded but have not played it yet.


So how do the national-relations dynamics tend to play out? In EU (and to some extent Vicky) there comes a point in the "life cycle" of a Clausewitch engine game where the accumulated "if then" tags and "false/true" states seem to result in "sometimes fairly convining/but often times utterly ridiculous" waves of global warmongering. Say for example, 1576 Finland declares war on Portugal (for no apparent reason nor benefit) this causes a cascade of events which lead to half of continental Europe at war. One of the alphas stomps a couple of the little puppies and completely gobbles them up, i.e., effectively major territorial changes resulting from effectively random rivalries and which had virtually no apparent relationship to that rivalry . . . Fighting tapers off. Finland and Portugal (who seem to have not even mobilized any military much less engaged in hostilities) cool off and peace out. Meanwhile, the war across Europe keeps simmering perhaps interminably, or at least until the major players are either completely prostrate or extinct . . .

I had the impression HoI was less "sand box" than EU or even Vicky, and so these "nutty international relations" that always seem to have been a problem in those games would just NOT be such a problem in HoI 4. But, at least with mods/DLC it sounds like the HoI game can be used for experiences which ARE fairly sand box and open ended/long-span historically. So do these nutty international relations problems crop up in HoI when played in these configurations?

I think the main problem they have continued to make with their Clausewitz engine is continuing to keep their cards to close to their vest. The portions of the engine that handle computer opponent agency should have been progressively more externalized to allow their quite capable modding communities to come up with better and better algorithms. They don't seem to have the inclination to do it, so that would seem like the most likely solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:16 pm 
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HoI is super sandbox, but it works in a totally different way from the other Paradox games. Rather than using the diplomatic engine with which you are familiar, it is based effectively on a diplomatic equivalent of a branching talent tree. NPC nations randomly pick branches from the tree (or can be forced to pick historical ones) and that determines what goes on.

Wars happen based on which option in the script they chose.

It can also lead to very silly wars though as the geopolitical situation can be quite different from the standard, but the talent tree assumes the standard. Nationalist Spain allying with Germany just as American tanks are smashing through the suburbs of Berlin isn't an intelligent move.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:20 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
HoI is super sandbox, but it works in a totally different way from the other Paradox games. Rather than using the diplomatic engine with which you are familiar, it is based effectively on a diplomatic equivalent of a branching talent tree. NPC nations randomly pick branches from the tree (or can be forced to pick historical ones) and that determines what goes on.

Wars happen based on which option in the script they chose.

It can also lead to very silly wars though as the geopolitical situation can be quite different from the standard, but the talent tree assumes the standard. Nationalist Spain allying with Germany just as American tanks are smashing through the suburbs of Berlin isn't an intelligent move.


Or declaring war on United States when you're already failing on on two fronts and four theaters.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Or declaring war on United States when you're already failing on on two fronts and four theaters.


I avoided Germany's war horniness in game for that reason. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Heh.

Long story short: You can grab all of Czechoslovakia, Memel, Slovenia, then swing Democratic and be among the Allies before the Reds come for you. Just leave Poland alone.

Or rather, since they didn´t attack under those circumstances when I looked into this, when the US feels like standing up against tyranny, which they will.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Scharfschütze wrote:
Heh.

Long story short: You can grab all of Czechoslovakia, Memel, Slovenia, then swing Democratic and be among the Allies before the Reds come for you. Just leave Poland alone.

Or rather, since they didn´t attack under those circumstances when I looked into this, when the US feels like standing up against tyranny, which they will.

;)


So it's broken.

When you say "all of Czechoslovakia" do you literally mean ALL? If it is only Sudetenland then being able to remain at peace with the Western powers makes sense of course, the Nazis managed to pull that off for around a year before their additional encroachments into Poland, etc., actually lead to war with the French and Brits . . . But if the Germans can literally forcefully conquest ALL of Czechoslovakia in one go, as well as the other regions you named, and STILL be able to become friends with the Western powers then . . . well that is just stupid; stupid game design I mean. Sounds like the same old Paradox silliness.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:35 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
So it's broken.
No or maybe(depending on whether the PO (programed opponent) has been modified for this scenario).

Read an article long ago about Computer Intelligence. It said if you put a computer in a room with a rattlesnake, what would it do, Nothing if you hadn't programmed it to recognized a rattle snake. Dumber than a dog.

Am assuming the PO has been programed for Nazis taking Czech and then starting the war by attacking Poland. If you don't attack Poland and instead just mark time what will the PO do, it depends on what the PO is designed to do.

Effectively what Scharfschütze suggests is playing the exploits, things the program isn't designed to cope with.

OK, say you don't attack Poland, but Russia does. What will happen without you.

A completely different outcome.

Depends on the programing.

IMHO 'AI' is very misleading, Norm Koger's preferred label 'PO' is it - exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosperity through Peace Alone: Germany After the Great
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:31 am 
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abradley wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
So it's broken.
No or maybe(depending on whether the PO (programed opponent) has been modified for this scenario).

Read an article long ago about Computer Intelligence. It said if you put a computer in a room with a rattlesnake, what would it do, Nothing if you hadn't programmed it to recognized a rattle snake. Dumber than a dog.

Am assuming the PO has been programed for Nazis taking Czech and then starting the war by attacking Poland. If you don't attack Poland and instead just mark time what will the PO do, it depends on what the PO is designed to do.

Effectively what Scharfschütze suggests is playing the exploits, things the program isn't designed to cope with.

OK, say you don't attack Poland, but Russia does. What will happen without you.

A completely different outcome.

Depends on the programing.

IMHO 'AI' is very misleading, Norm Koger's preferred label 'PO' is it - exactly.


Yes I agree. The term "AI" is nonsensical. Looking forward to designing my own Programmed Opponents within the next year or so :D

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