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 Post subject: Re: Overblown Historical Myths
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
Greek warfare was very ritualised, I believe, until around the midpoint of the Peloponnesian War. Epaminondas was just after, at that point I guess it was less about proving your manliness and more about winning battles.

Many moons ago I recommended a book: The Peloponnesian War by Donald Kagan. Did you read it?

Anyway the Spartan military prowess was a fact in the time. Athenians did not face Spartans on open field, Pericles built a wall to connect Athens and Pireus. And no siege weapon technology at that time. But then the plague happened. :roll:

I think Spartans were the badasses on the battlefield, until outsmarted by Epaminondas of Thebe. And the Spartan social structure was unstable, just like the Confederate South would have, if survived.

So I don't throw myths away. The myths have nuggets of truth in them.

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 Post subject: Re: Overblown Historical Myths
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:47 pm 
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nero wrote:
Many moons ago I recommended a book: The Peloponnesian War by Donald Kagan. Did you read it?


I did. Excellent book, I would also highly recommend.

I seem to recall some Spartans get trapped on Corfu pretty much right away and taken prisoner. So... it's not like they were unbeatable. Better than the others, sure, but sometimes the Sherman tank is good enough!

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 Post subject: Re: Overblown Historical Myths
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:08 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
nero wrote:
Many moons ago I recommended a book: The Peloponnesian War by Donald Kagan. Did you read it?


I did. Excellent book, I would also highly recommend.

I seem to recall some Spartans get trapped on Corfu pretty much right away and taken prisoner. So... it's not like they were unbeatable. Better than the others, sure, but sometimes the Sherman tank is good enough!


The Spartans lost some relatively smaller fights, but won the rare big ones.

Probably speaks more to their organization skills on the larger scale. Especially when integrating allied forces under their leadership since the large Greek battles always involved allied forces, often from multiple city-states. Probably not so much individual training, compared to other Greeks, but org & leadership of land armies. They were all pretty tough to beat, in a wider sense.

When the Spartans decided to go to war, anyway, as they were normally rather cautious and slow to commit. Outside of their long dust-up with Athens.


nero wrote:
Many moons ago I recommended a book: The Peloponnesian War by Donald Kagan. Did you read it?

Anyway the Spartan military prowess was a fact in the time. Athenians did not face Spartans on open field, Pericles built a wall to connect Athens and Pireus. And no siege weapon technology at that time. But then the plague happened. :roll:

I think Spartans were the badasses on the battlefield, until outsmarted by Epaminondas of Thebe. And the Spartan social structure was unstable, just like the Confederate South would have, if survived.

So I don't throw myths away. The myths have nuggets of truth in them.


I need to check that one out. Pretty sure I've read something else from Kagan, but don't recall what it was. Or maybe another writer with a similar name.

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 Post subject: Re: Overblown Historical Myths
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Athens kept being screwed by the gods. Plague, again and again.

Maybe they needed to sacrifice more bulls or something. :lol:

I guess maybe that was due to them being holed up in their city behind the walls.

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 Post subject: Re: Overblown Historical Myths
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:12 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
Athens kept being screwed by the gods. Plague, again and again.

Maybe they needed to sacrifice more bulls or something. :lol:

I guess maybe that was due to them being holed up in their city behind the walls.


Exactly why.

So thankful for modern advances and discoveries, when reading about all the disease and plague throughout history. We've only just recently pulled ourselves out of the filth, on the long scale of humanity.

Also: I'm an OCD hand-washer with some related germophobia joining in as I get older. Living in antiquity seems like you'd constantly have shit on you, among other things. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Overblown Historical Myths
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:42 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
Athens kept being screwed by the gods. Plague, again and again.

Maybe they needed to sacrifice more bulls or something. :lol:

I guess maybe that was due to them being holed up in their city behind the walls.


Indeed, this is the first thing you learn when playing King of the Dragon Pass - always sacrifice some cows to gods, even if you can't afford to. Otherwise Bad Shit TM is going to happen. Fury of Gods and all that.


The Spartans were trapped on an island because originally Spartans didn't use currency! They had no fleet. They later realized that they needed a fleet of their own - you know, so their guys don't always get stranded on islands and shit - and they adopted currency and built one.

NefariousKoel wrote:
EUBanana wrote:
Athens kept being screwed by the gods. Plague, again and again.

Maybe they needed to sacrifice more bulls or something. :lol:

I guess maybe that was due to them being holed up in their city behind the walls.


Exactly why.

So thankful for modern advances and discoveries, when reading about all the disease and plague throughout history. We've only just recently pulled ourselves out of the filth, on the long scale of humanity.

Also: I'm an OCD hand-washer with some related germophobia joining in as I get older. Living in antiquity seems like you'd constantly have shit on you, among other things. :?


"Oh, you got sick? Must be because you washed yourself the other day! Here, take some poison, if the poison doesn't do the trick we'll run half of your blood out, you know - to get rid of the bad blood of course!"

We still aren't fully out of the filth and we're a far way from being sanitary. Just the pointless tourism and massive global transit system without limitations is a thing that is going to one day kill hundreds of millions of people.


Trivia: if you go long enough without washing yourself a protective layer of germs will develop on your skin that offers some protection. Even so, it *is* better to get washed regularly.
In the days of old evolution still guided our species strongly. If you weren't cut out to live you would die away before having children.
I know this very well, I wouldn't be here without modern medicine. If we ever go back to stone age my lineage could easily fade away due to minor birth issues that are easily managed with basic medicine but can turn into lethal complications with the lack of doctors and wet nurses.

Which is part of why I gringe whenever people call me Nazi. There's nothing genetically superior about me. My good looks ( :lol: ) and good eyesight are easily put off by how my kind couldn't even survive without modernity.

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