maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:59 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


It's the Gulag of Fun



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:56 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16235
Reputation points: 13228
wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
Perhaps the doctrine having separate tank destroyers was not optimal, but it worked.


Well, it was promptly done away with after the war. The Americans could usually afford to attach a full (independent) tank battalion and in many cases a tank destroyer battalion to their infantry divisions. That is close to the AFV strength of a German late war Panzer Division.

Not convinced about the tank kills of Jabos. IIRC 2TAF alone claimed more tanks knocked out than were present in the West during Normandy 1944. (Source: Zetterling, N / Avgjoerandets oegonblick).
Jabos hurt the German supply system which of course had a major impact on their ability to wage mobile warfare though...
Everything I've read on US tank destroyers sez they were developed during the early desert war and not used 'til Europe, found to be near useless and spent the war as Infantry support bunker busters.

Just the opposite in the East, the Suggs were meant for bunker busting and used as tank destroyers.



Haven't seen it yet.

_________________
“Political Language… is Designed to Make Lies Sound Truthful… and to Give an Appearance of Solidity to Pure Wind.” — George Orwell


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:08 pm 
Offline
Staff Sergeant

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 3419
Reputation points: 5295
abradley wrote:
Everything I've read on US tank destroyers sez they were developed during the early desert war and not used 'til Europe, found to be near useless and spent the war as Infantry support bunker busters.

Just the opposite in the East, the Suggs were meant for bunker busting and used as tank destroyers.


The Germans faced a lot of tanks. Basically needed every tube that could be made into an anti/tank weapon in that role. Note though that on average a mid/late war German infantry division on average had to make do with a company of StuG or some kind of sfl. PAK (at best).


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:38 am 
Offline
His Most Gracious Majesty, Commie of the Year
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 7880
Reputation points: 17300
wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
Perhaps the doctrine having separate tank destroyers was not optimal, but it worked.


Well, it was promptly done away with after the war. The Americans could usually afford to attach a full (independent) tank battalion and in many cases a tank destroyer battalion to their infantry divisions. That is close to the AFV strength of a German late war Panzer Division.

Not convinced about the tank kills of Jabos. IIRC 2TAF alone claimed more tanks knocked out than were present in the West during Normandy 1944. (Source: Zetterling, N / Avgjoerandets oegonblick).
Jabos hurt the German supply system which of course had a major impact on their ability to wage mobile warfare though...


Well, that's what happened a lot during the war with everyone. Luckily post-war we get to look at not just the "we got 15 kills" but also the opposing force's "we lost 5".

In the air, someone starts to smoke, heads downwards and then one needs to focus on another threat before confirming impact - "he must've gone down, I poured 500 rounds across his fuselage and he started to smoke heavily". Then the other guy manages to fly back home - or in some cases the black sputter of smoke is actually caused by punching the throttle to max and it all kinda looks like someone catching fire as they're diving down for speed.

Then there were people who would count on the ground crew not being omniscient and the stuff being found out decades later if at all. Stuff like dropping bomb ordnance into forest or sea, heading back home and claiming a few kills.

But on average if people claimed a lot of kills they did achieve a lot of kills. When they reported low kills there were low kills.

It's always hard to tell from the air, on ground it's a lot easier to confirm a tank kill when the enemy tank turret is blown up 15 meters in the air or when the burning crew exit the tank with blood running from their ears.

_________________
Screw you nero


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:33 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16235
Reputation points: 13228
Sherman Tank Losses
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 3&t=123000
Pretty good discussion w/stats.

_________________
“Political Language… is Designed to Make Lies Sound Truthful… and to Give an Appearance of Solidity to Pure Wind.” — George Orwell


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:00 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 15918
Reputation points: 720
abradley wrote:
Sherman Tank Losses
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 3&t=123000
Pretty good discussion w/stats.

From your link.

Quote:
Have just read a two fscinating book's on tank warfare in Europe in '44/45.

One is "By Tank Into Normandy", by Stuart Hills. Hills was a young tank platoon Lt. with the Sherwood Rangers. He fought from D-Day through the Caen battles, the drive to Arnhem and on to Hanover at wars end. The other is by Ted Harman, "With The 11th Armoured". Harmon trained with the 11th Armoured as a tank driver. 11th Armoured entered the war during the battle of the Bulge and reached Linz in Austria by war's end. Harmon's descriptions of the liberataion of the extermination camps at Mauthausen are sickening. German troops encountered after that, especially SS, were more likely to be shot than captured.

In both books the rate of loss of Shermans is really staggering, especially so in Hills book. In fact Hills was the only surviving tank commander officer in his Regiment who survived.

In the forward to Harmon's book a Spencer Tucker of the Virginia Military Institute states that the US lost 6,000 tanks in Europe in WWII. The 3rd Armoured alone lost 648 M4's completely destroyed in combat, with a further 700 knocked out and repaired. Thats a loss rate of 580%.

Mind boggling.


I have read the first book few years ago, it is just excellent.

I don't remember any excessive losses in comparison of German tanks they met, though AT guns and shreks and fausts were lethally dangererous. Actually the descriptions and map drawings of the encounters against the enemy.

I can highly recommend this book.

Image

PS. I should post to the literary thread. :oops:

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:34 pm 
Offline
Staff Sergeant

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 3419
Reputation points: 5295
IIRC Hills belonged to the Sherewood Rangers Yeomanry, the only tank regiment to be part of the 8th Armoured Brigade for it's entire war service (Alamein to Germany).
SRY had been used in other roles before it was given tanks..., did some research on this unit a couple of years ago. :D


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:43 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 15918
Reputation points: 720
wulfir wrote:
IIRC Hills belonged to the Sherewood Rangers Yeomanry, the only tank regiment to be part of the 8th Armoured Brigade for it's entire war service (Alamein to Germany).
SRY had been used in other roles before it was given tanks..., did some research on this unit a couple of years ago. :D

Stuart Hills was not in the desert, too young. But he writes a lot about those desert rats with admiration. I highly recommend the book.

Actually I would loan the book to you, but sending the book back and forth would cost more than I paid for the book. But if you ever come to Helsinki...

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group