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 Post subject: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:33 am 
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Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
http://www.theshermantank.com/sherman/s ... e-sherman/
Today I saw this

Can't agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:19 pm 
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All of the stated facts in the text article are correct. Warthog is full of beans.

(Edited because on second read it's not clear with which ... the text or the Youtube... you could not agree).

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Sherman was good enough tan to do its job to support infantry after the German tanks were knocked out by other means.

Perhaps the doctrine having separate tank destroyers was not optimal, but it worked.

Facing a Panther a 75mm or 76mm Sherman had difficulties with penetration, and the British Firefly had some accuracy problems. But then Jabos tool out tanks, and so did Hellcats and Jacksons.

So it goes.

PS. What is your problem now? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:49 pm 
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Facing a Panther a 75mm or 76mm Sherman had difficulties with penetration, and the British Firefly had some accuracy problems. But then Jabos tool out tanks, and so did Hellcats and Jacksons.


76 armed US tanks had no trouble with PzVs or PzVIEs. That said, "taking out tanks by other means" was pretty much standard for the Germans. The overwhelming majority of allied AFV casualties were to German antitank guns, mostly PaK40s and to a lesser extent 88s. In tank warfare, any undetected tank or emplaced ATG has a huge advantage over the others. Since the Allies were usually MOVING i.e. on the attack, a favorable attrition rate for the Germans is expected.

When the shoe was on the other foot with Germans attacking into the face of emplaced US antitank guns or hidden tanks, the Germans in PzVs had their asses kicked extremely well by Shermans and everything else with a 76mm gun.

I read somewhere that the average range at which a PzV knocked out a Sherman was at 940 yards. The average range at which a Sherman knocked out a Pz V was 890 yards. That fifty yards is due to the fact that in most engagements the Pz V had the first shot because (1) the allies were attacking, moving, and easily seen (2) the Germans were defending, not moving, and not seen until revealed by shooting.

At the Battle of Arracourt, a German attack force equipped entirely with PzVs lost 86 tank destroyed (and a further 114 disabled) to an American force almost entirely equipped entirely with M4s with 75mm guns; 25 Shermans were destroyed.

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:51 pm 
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I disagreed with Warthog, in fact his rant caused me to type 'Good is Good enough' into the search engine (Not Google) and find 'Sherman Tank site'.

There's also stuff like this:
Quote:
https://www.reddit.com/user/the_howling_cow
The Sherman, with the proliferation of books like Death Traps and movies like Fury, is often regarded as almost a hazard to its crews. That is generally not the case. A trailer for Fury claims that the life expectancy of a U.S. tank crew was six weeks; U.S. tankers did not suffer "massive" casualties, (2.8% of Armored Force enlisted men deployed overseas were killed in action) and completely untrained typists were not forced into tank crews as late as April 1945. There was a slight shortage of trained tankers during the summer and fall of 1944, and emergency retraining was used to alleviate this in some units, but this was only a small part of the general replacement training crisis of that time period which most severely affected the infantry. Due to the lack of need for Armored Force officer replacements form the Zone of the Interior, shutting down the Armored Force officer candidate school was considered in September 1944. This was not pursued, but in the meantime the Tank Destroyer and Cavalry officer candidate schools were shuttered and moved to Fort Knox; the consolidated school began operating in November 1944.


The 'Good is good enough' quoted I though was Patton's or one of his staff, I know the MSM ranted about it and said the USA needed excellent like Panthers and Tigers, as usual they knew as much about it as I did at 9 years old ... but my family liked Patton, so ... so did I.

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:15 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Quote:
Facing a Panther a 75mm or 76mm Sherman had difficulties with penetration, and the British Firefly had some accuracy problems. But then Jabos tool out tanks, and so did Hellcats and Jacksons.


76 armed US tanks had no trouble with PzVs or PzVIEs. That said, "taking out tanks by other means" was pretty much standard for the Germans. The overwhelming majority of allied AFV casualties were to German antitank guns, mostly PaK40s and to a lesser extent 88s. In tank warfare, any undetected tank or emplaced ATG has a huge advantage over the others. Since the Allies were usually MOVING i.e. on the attack, a favorable attrition rate for the Germans is expected.

When the shoe was on the other foot with Germans attacking into the face of emplaced US antitank guns or hidden tanks, the Germans in PzVs had their asses kicked extremely well by Shermans and everything else with a 76mm gun.

I read somewhere that the average range at which a PzV knocked out a Sherman was at 940 yards. The average range at which a Sherman knocked out a Pz V was 890 yards. That fifty yards is due to the fact that in most engagements the Pz V had the first shot because (1) the allies were attacking, moving, and easily seen (2) the Germans were defending, not moving, and not seen until revealed by shooting.

At the Battle of Arracourt, a German attack force equipped entirely with PzVs lost 86 tank destroyed (and a further 114 disabled) to an American force almost entirely equipped entirely with M4s with 75mm guns; 25 Shermans were destroyed.

I doubt your claim that any Sherman tanker, 75, or 76 would face Panther face to face.

But this is another thing completely. No one tell. :(

So it goes.

PS.

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:57 pm 
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nero wrote:
I doubt your claim that any Sherman tanker, 75, or 76 would face Panther face to face.

But this is another thing completely. No one tell. :(

So it goes.

PS.
Face to face, depends on distance, initial gun facing, ect.

The M4 was nimble and reliable, the Panther wasn't.

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/ ... s-panzers/

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:53 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
I doubt your claim that any Sherman tanker, 75, or 76 would face Panther face to face.

But this is another thing completely. No one tell. :(

So it goes.

PS.
Face to face, depends on distance, initial gun facing, ect.

The M4 was nimble and reliable, the Panther wasn't.

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/ ... s-panzers/

Panther was not so nimble when it runs out of gas. ;)

But those Swedish tests were quite revealing. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Panther was not nimble brand new and fully fueled. It was a pos.

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:50 am 
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Seems like a tempest in a teapot to me. We won.

Assuming the Nazi tanks were "better" apparently that didn't prevent them from losing. In fact, one might even argue that their "better" tanks were part of the cause for their losing. If you build something that has a monster gun, and monster armor, but you can only build/deploy 10 per week, and your opponent is building something that has only a "three-quarter monster" gun and "two-thirds monster" armor but he can build 100 per week then you are clearly at a disadvantage. Ten twelve year old boys could probably take out Arnold Schwarzenegger as long as none of them chickened out and they all attacked at once.

I recall some sort of war game several years back . . . cannot think of the name of it, but I want to say it was in the early aughties . . . maybe 2003?

It was a simulation of a full on war between the U.S. and an unnamed Middle Eastern nation (which was pretty obviously meant to be Iran). They put this Marine corps colonel in charge of the Red Team (the Jihadis) and they were testing out their brand new high-tech information warfare system. The Marine guy thought outside the box (this was all computer based): he had all his units communicate with motor bike couriers and semafore instead of radio. He used a small armada of suicide speed boats, and various other "dirty tricks" and he managed to give the Blue force a big bloody nose and black eye and it was so ugly, the bureacrats and scientists in charge of the simulation called it off and ordered a "restart" because he had not "played right."

You'd think given how we got our fucking independence from the British we would not have lost touch with these axioms, but yeah, we seem to have done so.

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