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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:56 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
Perhaps the doctrine having separate tank destroyers was not optimal, but it worked.


Well, it was promptly done away with after the war. The Americans could usually afford to attach a full (independent) tank battalion and in many cases a tank destroyer battalion to their infantry divisions. That is close to the AFV strength of a German late war Panzer Division.

Not convinced about the tank kills of Jabos. IIRC 2TAF alone claimed more tanks knocked out than were present in the West during Normandy 1944. (Source: Zetterling, N / Avgjoerandets oegonblick).
Jabos hurt the German supply system which of course had a major impact on their ability to wage mobile warfare though...
Everything I've read on US tank destroyers sez they were developed during the early desert war and not used 'til Europe, found to be near useless and spent the war as Infantry support bunker busters.

Just the opposite in the East, the Suggs were meant for bunker busting and used as tank destroyers.



Haven't seen it yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:08 pm 
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abradley wrote:
Everything I've read on US tank destroyers sez they were developed during the early desert war and not used 'til Europe, found to be near useless and spent the war as Infantry support bunker busters.

Just the opposite in the East, the Suggs were meant for bunker busting and used as tank destroyers.


The Germans faced a lot of tanks. Basically needed every tube that could be made into an anti/tank weapon in that role. Note though that on average a mid/late war German infantry division on average had to make do with a company of StuG or some kind of sfl. PAK (at best).


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 Post subject: Re: Fun Facts: Stuff to make German Armor Fans Cry.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:38 am 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
Perhaps the doctrine having separate tank destroyers was not optimal, but it worked.


Well, it was promptly done away with after the war. The Americans could usually afford to attach a full (independent) tank battalion and in many cases a tank destroyer battalion to their infantry divisions. That is close to the AFV strength of a German late war Panzer Division.

Not convinced about the tank kills of Jabos. IIRC 2TAF alone claimed more tanks knocked out than were present in the West during Normandy 1944. (Source: Zetterling, N / Avgjoerandets oegonblick).
Jabos hurt the German supply system which of course had a major impact on their ability to wage mobile warfare though...


Well, that's what happened a lot during the war with everyone. Luckily post-war we get to look at not just the "we got 15 kills" but also the opposing force's "we lost 5".

In the air, someone starts to smoke, heads downwards and then one needs to focus on another threat before confirming impact - "he must've gone down, I poured 500 rounds across his fuselage and he started to smoke heavily". Then the other guy manages to fly back home - or in some cases the black sputter of smoke is actually caused by punching the throttle to max and it all kinda looks like someone catching fire as they're diving down for speed.

Then there were people who would count on the ground crew not being omniscient and the stuff being found out decades later if at all. Stuff like dropping bomb ordnance into forest or sea, heading back home and claiming a few kills.

But on average if people claimed a lot of kills they did achieve a lot of kills. When they reported low kills there were low kills.

It's always hard to tell from the air, on ground it's a lot easier to confirm a tank kill when the enemy tank turret is blown up 15 meters in the air or when the burning crew exit the tank with blood running from their ears.

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