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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:47 am 
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abradley wrote:
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New Poll: Atheists in Britain, Canada Are Losing Faith in Evolution
By Tyler O'Neil September 11, 2017
https://pjmedia.com/faith/2017/09/11/ne ... evolution/

A new survey about evolution in Britain and Canada revealed that while most people accept evolutionary theory in those countries, atheists and non-religious people harbor grave doubts about evolution's ability to explain humanity.

One in five British atheists (19 percent) and more than one in three Canadian atheists (38 percent) agreed with the statement, "Evolutionary processes cannot explain the existence of human consciousness." Non-religious people also harbored this doubt: 34 percent of the non-religious in Britain and 37 percent of them in Canada also agreed with that statement.

Similarly, over one in ten British atheists (12 percent) and nearly one in three Canadian atheists (31 percent) agreed with the statement, "Animals evolve over time but evolutionary science cannot explain the origins of human beings." In Britain, 19 percent of non-religious people also agreed, while 31 percent of the non-religious in Canada also expressed this doubt.

The Newman University/YouGov survey also studied the opinions of religious people. Over half of the self-described religious or spiritual people in both countries (54 percent in Britain and 55 percent in Canada) agreed that evolution cannot explain human consciousness, while 37 percent of British believers and 45 percent of Canadian believers said evolution cannot explain the origins of human beings.

These results are striking, especially because most Brits and Canadians believe in evolution. Almost three-quarters of Brits (71 percent) and almost two-thirds of Canadians (60 percent) said they accept evolutionary or theistic evolutionary accounts of the origin of human beings.

Only 9 percent of British people and 15 percent of Canadians said that "humans and other living things were created by God and have always existed in their current form." About one quarter of Americans believe such a creationist view, according to Gallup.

In Britain, 64 percent of adults said it was easy to integrate evolutionary science with their personal beliefs, while 50 percent of Canadians said so. Only 12 percent of Brits said it was difficult to accept evolutionary science, while 20 percent of Canadians said so.

While the low levels of belief in six-day creationism may grab headlines, the doubts about evolution may be the most significant.

Are Christianity and Science Incompatible?

In discussing faith, C.S. Lewis wrote that most people see faith and reason as in conflict, with the human mind being ruled by reason. But he found this not to be true. "For example, my reason is perfectly convinced by good evidence that anaesthetics do not smother me and that properly trained surgeons do not start operating until I am unconscious. But that does not alter the fact that when they have me down on the table and clap their horrible mask over my face, a mere childish panic begins inside me."

"Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable," Lewis wrote. He defined faith as "the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods."

This is one key explanation of why many atheists admit grave doubts about evolution. But another explanation should make them rather unweary.

Evolutionary science is far less settled than many atheists would have the general public believe. Indeed, there is scientific evidence to suggest that evolution does fail to explain human beings and human consciousness.

Stephen C. Meyer, author of Darwin's Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design, told PJ Media that the current theory of evolution fails "to solve the fundamental problems of new information and new form — you need new information to build new forms of life."
(Continued)
As I've always said, 'the theory of evolution is that - a theory'.

That said, IMHO it's the best theory to date of how we humans came to be 'humans.'

Everything in science is a theory. ;)

By mathematical logic is not possible to prove that non-existing does not exist.

You can prove that something exists just giving one sample, even a minor one. ;)

Deus Vult.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:32 am 
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I'd say that there are theories that have been tested so thoroughly by multiple scientists that they approach the level of established facts. The theory of gravitational attraction for example describes the motions of non-relativistic objects so very well that no sane person will jump off a cliff wearing nothing but a suit of armor and hope to flutter gently to the ground.

The theory of natural selection (not the "theory of evolution" as those who don't know much about it will call it) is so very well supported by multiple data sets that it has about the same status as the theory of gravity. Evolution by natural selection has been observed in ongoing natural and lab settings for the better part of 100 years and it's very well known of course from the paleontological and naturalist/taxonomic record.

The theory "god exists" and its variants (multiple gods, other deities etc) has ZERO independently confirmed evidence in support of it. In short, it is a claim that has about as much credibility as your average commercial for herbal supplements or holistic healing.

Now, its entirely reasonable for people to believe it. It may even be people who believe in god(s) feel they know said deities' intentions. But their beliefs are not independently verifiable.

Given other known facts about human attempts to acquire wealth, power, or other forms of control, I view all such statements of the form "God exists and demands that you do....." "God exists and has a plan for you if you only will..." and "I say that God will punish you if...." are purest nonsensical bullshit crafted by malevolent people.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:48 pm 
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I haven't always thought this way, but after reading more history and pre-history, for me "religion" is sort of the modern remnant of the olde tribal "shaman" and the idea that HS wondered "where did we come from" ... "where do we go" ... and "why does it rain" ... and "why do the buffalo roam" ... and all sorts of things ... so from individual or small group superstitions ... came the shaman ... maybe an olde hunter who couldn't keep up any more ... but could tell good stories and so the tribe would help feed the guy in exchange for the stories ... and he (or she maybe) would also try to be the head herbalist and help sick folks ... and over time, some of the remedies certainly worked ... so anyway ... these guys were the first "priests" ... and when the paleolithic ... became the "neolithic" ... and people started farming and larger groups than tribes lived in stationary places ... apparently the priests got more important and were even the bosses sometimes ... and then we enter historic times ... and these "religions" became more organized and such and then here we are.

But as superstition gives way to science ... then yes ... the "feel good" aspect of religion does seem to help some ... over the "cold reality" of science ...

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:50 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
I'd say that there are theories that have been tested so thoroughly by multiple scientists that they approach the level of established facts. The theory of gravitational attraction for example describes the motions of non-relativistic objects so very well that no sane person will jump off a cliff wearing nothing but a suit of armor and hope to flutter gently to the ground.

The theory of natural selection (not the "theory of evolution" as those who don't know much about it will call it) is so very well supported by multiple data sets that it has about the same status as the theory of gravity. Evolution by natural selection has been observed in ongoing natural and lab settings for the better part of 100 years and it's very well known of course from the paleontological and naturalist/taxonomic record.

The theory "god exists" and its variants (multiple gods, other deities etc) has ZERO independently confirmed evidence in support of it. In short, it is a claim that has about as much credibility as your average commercial for herbal supplements or holistic healing.

Now, its entirely reasonable for people to believe it. It may even be people who believe in god(s) feel they know said deities' intentions. But their beliefs are not independently verifiable.

Given other known facts about human attempts to acquire wealth, power, or other forms of control, I view all such statements of the form "God exists and demands that you do....." "God exists and has a plan for you if you only will..." and "I say that God will punish you if...." are purest nonsensical bullshit crafted by malevolent people.

People want certainty, not the uncertainty that is always with science. ;)

So religion provides more stable framework. The things were fixed thousands of years ago. Never mind that the fundamental stories were borrowed from even older stories of other peoples. :roll:

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Well, philosophy, epistemology are concerned with "how do we know what we know" ... or "is it possible to know anything"

Joe-ists used to be interested in these debates ... but maybe got tired of them, so now we are just willing to "assume" (accept without proof) statements like "Reality Exists" ... and yet we know there are people that spend their "professional lives" concerned about such topics. We choose to do other things.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Quote:
... People want certainty, not the uncertainty that is always with science ...


Not all people .. Joe-ists are totally fine with uncertainty ...

Quote:
... the fundamental stories were borrowed from even older stories ...


Study a bunch of "creation myths" ... after you do, you might be surprised that there are not so many different flavors ... and even more surprised by how many of them involve TWINS ... from ALL over the globe. I'm not sure what that means ... but one guess is that this means these stories do go WAAAAAY back ...

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:27 pm 
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I've lived most of my life with uncertainty and unpredictability in everything, even in things that were supposed to be reasonably reliable. I have grown comfortable -- well not entirely -- let's say "used to dealing with it often enough so as not to panic"... with uncertainty even chaos. The once CERTAIN thing I can control is how I will react to whatever people cause to happen.

Organized religions, especially the abrahamic cults, are self-evidently about controlling people not about providing any sort of comfort. It doesn't matter what the texts say. I make my opinion based on years of anecdotal observations of how people who define themselves as "religious" behave.

I've seen some interesting shit over the years that makes me suspect that nature spirits of some sort may exist. But these experiences are anecdotal, subjective, non-repeatable, and unpredictable. Therefore I make no claims about their universality or general interaction with the world around us. Certainly it's not in my job description to explain these things to anyone else much less try to claim what such things might "want." I note that the few interactions I have had with them have been friendly or at least cordial. On a couple of occasions downright funny from my point of view. On one occasion not so pleasant and not funny at all. So I am by personal inclination sort of a neopagan. There is no certainty offered in my point of view.

How does any of that dovetail with physics? Don't know. Not sure I can solve it. Don't feel that I need to.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:39 pm 
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jwilkerson wrote:
...
Study a bunch of "creation myths" ... after you do, you might be surprised that there are not so many different flavors ... and even more surprised by how many of them involve TWINS ... from ALL over the globe. I'm not sure what that means ... but one guess is that this means these stories do go WAAAAAY back ...

Not exactly correct that twin thing.

three brothers in mythology

Greek: Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades.
Nordic: Odin, Vili and Ve.

But there are twins too, not three brothers. ;)

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
... The once CERTAIN thing I can control is how I will react ..


BTW, while I can make so such definitive claim ... I do consider the most important goal of my persistent outdoor "training" ... to continuously take myself outside my comfort zone ... and to be aware of any "near panic" reaction and to stop it ...

A short version of the goal of this training could be said to be "don't" panic" ... and that goes for any and all circumstances and causes ...

We are animals ... and our "lower self" is emotional and will react ... but we by experiencing more and more "near panic" situations ... we can gain more and more control ...

I don't think we (or anyone) can get to the point of never panicking ... until they are dead ... but we can asymptotically approach that goal through continuous focused training.

But this also means that when trying to defeat an "opponent" ... by taking them quickly ... way outside their comfort zone ... they will lose control and be far less able to defeat you. You can exploit this advantage to win.

So, controlling ones reactions to others and just to events is a critical life skill and I work on all the time.

I call it "training the fat" ...

:)

==


Quote:
... interesting shit over the years that makes me suspect that nature spirits of some sort may exist ...


Well, I may not believe in "god" ... but I do believe in "mother nature" ... not necessarily meaning a "sentient being" ... but certainly being out here ... you know there are forces beyond your control ... and there are patterns ... and there are exceptions to the patterns ... and as farmers and ranchers we have to know when to roll the dice and when to fold.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Well, I've been through some shit. In extremis where I am NOT immediately threatened my immediate physiological reaction is almost anti-adrenaline. I feel physically cooler, shit seems to slow down around me, and I find myself coming up with a calm plan of action before any time has elapsed. Panic has not set in.

I probably would have been a good launch officer or ground-crewman, or a good artillerist. ;)

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