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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:16 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Dont need a deity to tell me when humans lie about deities.

Pretty much this. I was raised in my early years by Catholic propaganda that portrayed Jesus as a blond haired, blue eyed white bloke. The only way I would start believing in magical sky beings these days is if Mr Tickle showed up at my door and gave me a cheeky feel up.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:03 pm 
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I have no idea what lies "inside" every black hole, nor what lay before the Big Bang, nor what lies beyond the observable universe.

In fact, there is no way any human will ever know about these inscrutable times/places, so . . . as unlikely as it might seem, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jesus of Nazareth, Michael Jackson and Carl Sagan MIGHT be partying down just beyond such observational limits. There is no way to prove that they are not, nor any way to prove that they are--and moreover, there never CAN be any way to produce any actual proof along these lines.

This means that, explanations that are even more absurd and mind-bending than a handful of kooky human characters hanging out post mortem are--no matter how unlikely or how far from Occam's Razor--possible.

Stick that in your atheist ass and light it.

Intelligent scientist cannot sensibly adhere to atheism because there is no way to disprove the supernatural. The supernatural might or might not exist beyond the limits of our empiricism and agnosticism is the only non-problematic perspective for a scientist. In sum: "Don't know; cannot know," which is a very different conclusion than "No. Impossible" (Atheist), or "Yes, I believe" (Believer).

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Mac wrote:
mdiehl wrote:
Dont need a deity to tell me when humans lie about deities.

Pretty much this. I was raised in my early years by Catholic propaganda that portrayed Jesus as a blond haired, blue eyed white bloke. The only way I would start believing in magical sky beings these days is if Mr Tickle showed up at my door and gave me a cheeky feel up.

[img]-[/img]
Don't forget the Black Madonnas. and the Black Nazarene how can anybody believe in Christian Faith when it can't even get it's images right?

Never worried about their appearance, the message.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:40 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Dont need a deity to tell me when humans lie about deities.
You throw out the word lie with great abandon, if somebody believes something you don't is that a lie?

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:06 am 
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What happens without God?

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:22 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Intelligent scientist cannot sensibly adhere to atheism because there is no way to disprove the supernatural. The supernatural might or might not exist beyond the limits of our empiricism and agnosticism is the only non-problematic perspective for a scientist. In sum: "Don't know; cannot know," which is a very different conclusion than "No. Impossible" (Atheist), or "Yes, I believe" (Believer).


Atheism is a-theism. Lack of theism. Like asocial person is not a social person, not anti-social.

That some atheists are anti-theists is real but there you go - they're anti-theists more than atheist. Like anti-social people are more anti-social than asocial.

Like anti-social is not mutually exclusive with asocial personality, atheism is not mutually exclusive with anti-theism.

mdiehl wrote:
I can definitively say this about deities: if they exist, no human is qualified to represent their goals or to act as their pitch men on this earth.


I agree with you in full.

Hence why I said I am an atheist with Christian religion. It means I have religious level of conviction regarding certain values, Christian values but I don't believe in gods. I have zero reason to believe in any god. This isn't mutually exclusive with having religious convictions. They're about how we should live, not about why we should live like that.

Take a bunch of astrophysicists. They'd never agree that they're alike - they're all so very different. But give them blue shirts and put them in same room with Moon Landing Deniers and Flat Earthers who are wearing red shirts. All of a sudden all the blue shirts seem a lot alike.

Islam and communism. All of a sudden I realize that my values are derived from Christianity and that I'd rather have these values win the war against their values. Even if I don't agree about something that makes absolutely zero difference and cannot be proven either or with the other people who share my values.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:38 am 
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Scientists -- real scientists anyhow -- do not treat unsubstantiated (and, indeed, unsubstantiatable) claims as credible. As Carl Sagan said (see Baloney Detector Kit) any claim as to reality that is offered without evidence may be summarily rejected without evidence. The suggestion that science refutes atheism displays a lack of understanding of both scientific method and atheism.

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if somebody believes something you don't is that a lie?


If someone claims to have knowledge of an empirical truth and can offer no evidence other than belief in support of it, the claim is rejectable prima facie. Furthermore, in every case where someone has offered a statement of the form "God wants you to do _________" the motives of the person making the statement have always and in every instance been some form of personal gain ... aggrandizement, money, political support, promotion of bigotry, promotion of religious nationalism of their faith above all others, etc. Those persons in every case have suspect motives and in almost every case have been liars.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:40 am 
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Quote:
I agree with you in full.


There are times when I have surmised that no benevolent deities exist because if they did they'd be much better at communication overall, and would have much more discerning staff running their HR Departments. ;)

I agree with the rest of your post of course. Thanks for the clarification btw. Yeah, given a choice between two lousy alternatives ... droves of people embracing some form of Christianity versus those embracing Islam, I'd choose the former. Given all christians I generally prefer Catholics, Lutherans, and Congregationalists over the rest. But if we HAVE to have lots of religious people, I prefer in general those who are committed first and foremost to the 1st Amendment and to leaving everyone else alone. The least harmful religious people seem to me to be modern Celtic NeoPagans.

IMO people who imagine religion to be a moral force (not substantially the case although sometimes true) would serve humanity well to begin with their principles built around the statement "First, do no harm."

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
Intelligent scientist cannot sensibly adhere to atheism because there is no way to disprove the supernatural. The supernatural might or might not exist beyond the limits of our empiricism and agnosticism is the only non-problematic perspective for a scientist. In sum: "Don't know; cannot know," which is a very different conclusion than "No. Impossible" (Atheist), or "Yes, I believe" (Believer).


Atheism is a-theism. Lack of theism. Like asocial person is not a social person, not anti-social.

That some atheists are anti-theists is real but there you go - they're anti-theists more than atheist. Like anti-social people are more anti-social than asocial.

Like anti-social is not mutually exclusive with asocial personality, atheism is not mutually exclusive with anti-theism.

mdiehl wrote:
I can definitively say this about deities: if they exist, no human is qualified to represent their goals or to act as their pitch men on this earth.


I agree with you in full.

Hence why I said I am an atheist with Christian religion. It means I have religious level of conviction regarding certain values, Christian values but I don't believe in gods. I have zero reason to believe in any god. This isn't mutually exclusive with having religious convictions. They're about how we should live, not about why we should live like that.

Take a bunch of astrophysicists. They'd never agree that they're alike - they're all so very different. But give them blue shirts and put them in same room with Moon Landing Deniers and Flat Earthers who are wearing red shirts. All of a sudden all the blue shirts seem a lot alike.

Islam and communism. All of a sudden I realize that my values are derived from Christianity and that I'd rather have these values win the war against their values. Even if I don't agree about something that makes absolutely zero difference and cannot be proven either or with the other people who share my values.


Agnostic

Quote:
Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable.[1][2][3]


As I've already pointed out, there ARE boundaries to our empiricism. Thus, the definition above is the only reasonable perspective for any purely scientific cosmology. "Don't know; cannot know."

Word games about A-theist, Oh-Theist, Anti-Theist, etc., do not concern me. If someone can agree with me that the supernatural cannot be excluded because there are unknowables then I don't care if they think they are an a-theist, an anti-theist, or a bi-theist.

Atheism

Quote:
Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[1][2][7][8]


According to my own epistemology, the conclusion that an assertion (e.g., there are supernatural forces) cannot be known because it is beyond empiricism is most definitely NOT equivalent to either (b) rejection of belief in the assertion; or (c) rebuttal of the assertion.

Arguably it is equivalent to (a) absence of belief in such an assertion, and I've more than once been badgered by prosletyzing atheists trying to tell me "You are not an agnostic, you are an atheist. You agree in having an absence of belief."

Too many atheists are assholes (e.g., Richard Dawkins) and I have no desire to be associated with them so I reject this argument simply based on pragmatic semantics.

All I "believe" is that it is impossible for humanity to know anything about the boundaries of reality and thus it is impossible for a scientist reach any conclusion other than "Don't know; cannot know." I also believe that a good epistemological philosopher would agree with me and be able to argue my case.

Let us consider: there was a murder sometime in the recent past--many of them in fact, but let us focus on just one of them--and at least one of them may already have a suspect under investigation if not under arrest. For the sake of this mental exercise, let us assume the parties directly involved in this case (the suspect, the actual murderer, the victim and any first-order zone acquaintances of all those parties) are unknown to you and I. One might ask, "Do you believe that the suspect in custody IS the actual murderer?" but in the absence of even any KNOWLEDGE (much less proof one way or the other) of any of the parties involved in the case, belief and disbelief are both equally as unscientific. Suspension of conclusion, i.e., neither believing nor disbelieving is the only viable conclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism isn't Edgy or Amazing- It's Dying Out Worldwide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:49 pm 
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An idea only deserves scientific credibility if it has any sort of compelling evidence in its support, and a well framed suite of testable, logical suppositions, that ANYONE could test, that follow if the theory represents any sort of reality "truth." If the idea supposes that one has to take the idea on faith, it's not worth pursuing.

No one would credibly suggest that everyone in the USA should be required to eat pasta daily because, according to the Book of Pastafaria, people should eat pasta every day. No one suggests that people that do not eat pasta every day are morally bankrupt, and should not be allowed to marry, or procreate, or vote, etc. No one would suggest that hate speech directed against people who eat pasta should be outlawed. No one of us would want to be accosted by sweaty-toothed clammy-skinned lunatics demanding that we should worship pasta, etc.

As to science.... there are plenty of logical reasons to surmise that deities do not exist, at least as conceived of by religious people. If someone can come up with a reasonable detector for detecting information about various other universes or dimensions that seem to be supported by theoretical mathematics (seem to be... the mathematics is too complex for my training....), such that the experiments are replicable and do not require faith-based reasoning, perhaps deities existence will become an idea worthy of investigation.

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