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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:41 pm 
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abradley wrote:
There's also the 'Big Bang'!

When I was young Hubble's 'Steady State' theory was popular, by the late '50s the Big Bang was top dog.

With the Steady State everything wasn't move away from each other, now with the Big Bang it is and how am I going to meet aliens with them running from me. Besides that how am I to get out of this cabbage patch with those distances growing every second? :roll:



This seems like a pretty good overview. Slightly pedantic and simplified but it at least provides an overall historical orientation to the dramatic revolution which has occurred in astronomy over the last century, and based on the last 20 years is an accelerating revolution.

The first 6 minutes or so are Intro crap, replete with vague thematic statements and CGI shots. But the video does account for the transformation in the prevailing cosmological models that you are asking about Abrad.


One hundred years from now, historians might well look at the transformations in our prevailing models of the universe between say 1890 and 1990 and regard that revolution as being no less monumental as the Copernican revolution. But it has happened within a social framework where the observations and analyses were not denounced as heresy and suppressed, so in that regard it has been "less revolutionary," even if it has been more revolutionary from a scientific standpoint.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:35 am 
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Yeah, watch that all the way through and tell me my "amoeba" analogy is not apt ;)

"400 years we have been looking at the universe with telescopes, and [with the discovery of dark matter and dark energy] we now realize, we still have yet to discover 95% of the universe."

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:24 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Yeah, watch that all the way through and tell me my "amoeba" analogy is not apt ;)

"400 years we have been looking at the universe with telescopes, and [with the discovery of dark matter and dark energy] we now realize, we still have yet to discover 95% of the universe."


Well, there are a few things to consider.

Physics - detection over thousands and millions of light-years is not that easy.

You need stuff, lots of expensive stuff. Also, even with stuff you eventually need to go get a closer look. Even if we turned Earth into a gigantic observatory, we'd still be battling the distances and inverse square law.

Considering how much expensive stuff costs, we haven't been able to afford significant quantities of it yet. At all times we will prioritize growth, standards of living and military above observation capacity. As economy grows exponentially so does our ability to see, also aided by technological breakthroughs but primarily simply the amount of resources available.

Just like an amoeba doesn't have the proteins to support a good set of brains and eyes, we're only as a civilization starting to be able to afford our own eyes and the processing power.

@abradley
Worry not, the rate at which the other galaxies are escaping is quite slow from our perspective. Within our galaxy most of the stars are contained by the galaxy and it is a big place, 20-40 billion star systems to get started with, a nice little starter package. With exponential expansion and the right kind of civilization we could cover our entire galaxy with human habitation in a matter of million years or less, depending on a number of things.

Consider this, with annual growth of 5% we could have our population increase by a factor of 1,546,318,920,731,927,238,984 in a thousand years. That there is plenty to colonize Milky Way with.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:

One hundred years from now, historians might well look at the transformations in our prevailing models of the universe between say 1890 and 1990 and regard that revolution as being no less monumental as the Copernican revolution. But it has happened within a social framework where the observations and analyses were not denounced as heresy and suppressed, so in that regard it has been "less revolutionary," even if it has been more revolutionary from a scientific standpoint.
:roll: My underline.
Quote:
Why did science make little real progress in Europe in the Middle Ages?
Tim O'Neill
Tim O'Neill, Head Inquisitor against bad history.
Updated Jan 11, 2015 · Upvoted by Humphrey Clarke, MA in Modern History - University of St Andrews
Originally Answered: Why did science make little real progress in Europe in the Middle Ages?
Summary: This question is based on the common but erroneous belief that there was no scientific progress in the Middle Ages. In fact, modern historians of science have long since shown this to be a myth and have gone on to show that far from being a scientific dark age, the Medieval period lay the foundations of modern science.

The Myth of the Scientific Dark Age
(Continued)
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-science-m ... m-ONeill-1

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:25 am 
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Galileo's championing of heliocentrism and Copernicanism was controversial during his lifetime, when most subscribed to either geocentrism or the Tychonic system.[10] He met with opposition from astronomers, who doubted heliocentrism because of the absence of an observed stellar parallax.[10] The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism was "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture."[10][11][12] Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII and thus alienated him and the Jesuits, who had both supported Galileo up until this point.[10] He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", and forced to recant. He spent the rest of his life under house arrest.[13][14] While under house arrest, he wrote one of his best-known works, Two New Sciences, in which he summarized work he had done some forty years earlier on the two sciences now called kinematics and strength of materials.[15][16]


Others were also burned at the stake for heresy. In general the Church wasn't very open to new ideas. In fact at the time it wasn't so irredeemably different from Islam.

Only, with protestantism and it's spread and seeing how science could produce better field cannons, better rifles and so many of the protestant lords took up to defend the impunity of their proto-scientists from religious interference even when they attacked and criticized the way Church operated.


No one sensible today is suggesting there was no science and no progress during those days. What we're essentially saying is that the Church had a nasty habit of punishing those who it didn't like, who often happened to be scientists.

That they were only punishing them because they criticized the Church or some views held by the Church is no defense at all. It is exactly why we must never again allow religion to have such a toxic impact on our society and limit our science.

No idea is beyond criticism, religion the least. We can say whatever we like about any religion and no religion earns any implicit respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:02 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Others were also burned at the stake for heresy. In general the Church wasn't very open to new ideas. In fact at the time it wasn't so irredeemably different from Islam.
Are you referring to Henry the 8th.
Kameolontti wrote:
That they were only punishing them because they criticized the Church or some views held by the Church is no defense at all. It is exactly why we must never again allow religion to have such a toxic impact on our society and limit our science.

No idea is beyond criticism, religion the least. We can say whatever we like about any religion and no religion earns any implicit respect.
Don't you mean Atheist regimes, 100 million dead in the 20th century.

We must never allow atheists to have such toxic impact on any society.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:05 am 
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abradley wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
Others were also burned at the stake for heresy. In general the Church wasn't very open to new ideas. In fact at the time it wasn't so irredeemably different from Islam.
Are you referring to Henry the 8th.
Kameolontti wrote:
That they were only punishing them because they criticized the Church or some views held by the Church is no defense at all. It is exactly why we must never again allow religion to have such a toxic impact on our society and limit our science.

No idea is beyond criticism, religion the least. We can say whatever we like about any religion and no religion earns any implicit respect.
Don't you mean Atheist regimes, 100 million dead in the 20th century.

We must never allow atheists to have such toxic impact on any society.


There's a fallacy. Atheism is not an ideology or religion. For instance communism can take the form of religion, fulfilling all the functions and providing a group of people with "a cause" worth dying for, worth killing for.

You're correct. Any ideology/religion that has a strong authoritarian core opens up the possibility to use it for systematic murder, such as communism.
They are direct ideological enemies of ideologies based on individualism, personal benefit, systems such as free market capitalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:29 am 
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Given statistical analyses it's likely that 99,990,000 of those 100M were killed by the religiously devout. And there is no question that Medieval Europe was a scientific dark age in large measure because of feudal economics and secondarily because of the Roman Catholic Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Where Are All the Extraterrestrials?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Consider the source. :geek:

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