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 Post subject: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:20 am 
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https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Protestantism-become-so-popular-in-Scandinavia/answer/Susanna-Viljanen?srid=zfqv

Why did Protestantism become so popular in Scandinavia?

by Susanna Viljanen:

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Originally, it was politics.

All Scandinavian countries are Lutheran. Lutheranism represents Caesaropapism in contrast to the universalism of the Catholic Church, and the kings of the Scandinavian kingdoms saw Reformation as means of crushing the power of the Church and removing any competing power so they could rule as absolute monarchs - and to confiscate the Church from its money and other assets.

Later the Lutheranism proved to be an excellent way to solidify national identity and to contribute productivity and education. Lutheranism is a lexical religion like Judaism - it stresses on books, learning, education and personal religious and spiritual experience, while both Catholicism and Orthodoxism are visual religions - they stresses on images, icons, statues and theatrical sermons and less on books and codexes.

The result was that Scandinavia reached full literacy already in the 17th century, and it was actually prohibited to marry in Sweden and Finland if you were illiterate. The Church insisted the parents would read the Bible to the children in the family and teach them to be good Christians.

This stress on education and literacy gave the society positive feedback. The clergymen quickly formed the intelligentsiya in all Nordic countries, and as Lutheran clergy is allowed to marry, they quickly formed the educated upper class in all countries. Almost all those families are still extant, and they have provided many famous scientists, engineers, researchists, teachers and professors as well as clergymen. Many Lutheran priests and bishops have themselves been scientists, and many new crops, such as potato, were originally introduced by the Church. The welfare state is a Lutheran, not Socialist, innovation.

Lutheranism is a simple, down-to-earth religion with unassuming churches and sermons. It can safely said it resembles most the original mother religion (Judaism) of all Christian denominations.

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Protestantism-become-so-popular-in-Scandinavia/answer/Susanna-Viljanen?srid=zfqv

Why did Protestantism become so popular in Scandinavia?

by Susanna Viljanen:

Quote:
Originally, it was politics.

All Scandinavian countries are Lutheran. Lutheranism represents Caesaropapism in contrast to the universalism of the Catholic Church, and the kings of the Scandinavian kingdoms saw Reformation as means of crushing the power of the Church and removing any competing power so they could rule as absolute monarchs - and to confiscate the Church from its money and other assets.

Later the Lutheranism proved to be an excellent way to solidify national identity and to contribute productivity and education. Lutheranism is a lexical religion like Judaism - it stresses on books, learning, education and personal religious and spiritual experience, while both Catholicism and Orthodoxism are visual religions - they stresses on images, icons, statues and theatrical sermons and less on books and codexes.

The result was that Scandinavia reached full literacy already in the 17th century, and it was actually prohibited to marry in Sweden and Finland if you were illiterate. The Church insisted the parents would read the Bible to the children in the family and teach them to be good Christians.

This stress on education and literacy gave the society positive feedback. The clergymen quickly formed the intelligentsiya in all Nordic countries, and as Lutheran clergy is allowed to marry, they quickly formed the educated upper class in all countries. Almost all those families are still extant, and they have provided many famous scientists, engineers, researchists, teachers and professors as well as clergymen. Many Lutheran priests and bishops have themselves been scientists, and many new crops, such as potato, were originally introduced by the Church. The welfare state is a Lutheran, not Socialist, innovation.

Lutheranism is a simple, down-to-earth religion with unassuming churches and sermons. It can safely said it resembles most the original mother religion (Judaism) of all Christian denominations.

All that is true. But the reason why Sweden converted to Lutheran religion was purely economical: Gustav I just confiscated the property of the Catholic church. The same happened in Denmark and in many places in Germany.

I have been half of my life a member of the Evangelic Secular Church of Finland, I swore my military oath in the name of the almighty and all knowing God. And in school I took religion to the end of high school. Mainly because of the smart and pretty teacher, Johanna.

The Lutheran religion is deeply woven in the fabric of Finnish society. And no doubt the same in Sweden.

The bind between the state and church has changed the church more secular.

So it goes.

PS. As you might have noticed, I am not at all religious, never have been.

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:10 am 
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Well, she lists the two - power and free cash - as the primary reasons why it got started.

I agree, I wanted to go through the confirmation and everything during my seeking years. I studied the faith, read through bible and all that.

Now I'm a strict atheist. I am critical of all religion when they serve to create a theocratic authority or so.

Yet I fully recognize that many of my core values do come from Lutheran faith - I value family values, hard work, education, science etc. but I just don't believe in gods or supernatural. I am even forced to admit that many religious people are way smarter and even better people than I am. I do attend religious events when invited and am fully respectful to the hosts and others present - and they will understand that I will refrain from speaking out any prayers as that would be fake and imho insulting.

There's no avoiding the fact that Lutheranism is the fabric of our society. As such I view the attack on our core values and patriotism as one of the greatest threats this nation faces at the moment. There should be nothing wrong with people having similar values, respect for family, hard work and patriotism.

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:53 am 
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I think Martin Luther probably had honest moral convictions for his actions.

But like Nero said, many of the Princes, Dukes, Barons, Kings and Emperors who took up the Protestant rebellion thing did it primarily as a means to take power away from "the Church." An old, well-entrenched mafia replaced by 1000 smaller local versions where they could tweak the graft and corruption schemes to better serve the local power holders interests and for less trouble than when everybody was bowing to Rome.

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:47 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I think Martin Luther probably had honest moral convictions for his actions.

But like Nero said, many of the Princes, Dukes, Barons, Kings and Emperors who took up the Protestant rebellion thing did it primarily as a means to take power away from "the Church." An old, well-entrenched mafia replaced by 1000 smaller local versions where they could tweak the graft and corruption schemes to better serve the local power holders interests and for less trouble than when everybody was bowing to Rome.


Rome also had it coming. You can only excommunicate kings for so long for having a barren wife and trying to secure their bloodline until some of them get sick and tired.

Also the bullshit with bishops themselves invading your lands and you getting threatened from fighting back and so, it wasn't helping.

Not to mention that there was this huge pyramid scheme running around your lands saying people will go to hell if they don't buy Heaven Premiums with all their money, the microtransactions were arranged so that no matter how much money you had it was always the best to give it all up for Rome.

It actually hurt the economy like hell, imagine if in US something like 30% of the people spent all their available spending money and then some to build a massive cathedral in Rome?

And what hurts the economy also hurts the local taxation. Money was bleeding out and taxes were dropping as Rome kept reinventing better and better schemes for collecting money.

Image
This maps nicely shows two regions, one hit by Catholicism and one hit by communism. As we can see, communism results in absolute poverty, Catholicism merely lesser growth than Protestantism.

There was a good point in sociology made - religions don't result from their countries but countries are shaped by their religions. Every protestant country is a Switzerland or England, every Catholic country is a Italy or Poland,.. and just look at the Muslim countries, sigh.

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:26 pm 
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No argument there! Rome DEFINITELY had it coming! Quite possibly the most corrupt entity ever, the Roman Catholic Church immediately prior to the Reformation.

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
No argument there! Rome DEFINITELY had it coming! Quite possibly the most corrupt entity ever, the Roman Catholic Church immediately prior to the Reformation.

I blame the French. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:00 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
No argument there! Rome DEFINITELY had it coming! Quite possibly the most corrupt entity ever, the Roman Catholic Church immediately prior to the Reformation.
Recently a church historian remarked that the Pedophile scandal was the second best thing to happen to the Catholic church, the first was the Reformation!

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:01 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
I think Martin Luther probably had honest moral convictions for his actions.

But like Nero said, many of the Princes, Dukes, Barons, Kings and Emperors who took up the Protestant rebellion thing did it primarily as a means to take power away from "the Church." An old, well-entrenched mafia replaced by 1000 smaller local versions where they could tweak the graft and corruption schemes to better serve the local power holders interests and for less trouble than when everybody was bowing to Rome.


Rome also had it coming. You can only excommunicate kings for so long for having a barren wife and trying to secure their bloodline until some of them get sick and tired.

Also the bullshit with bishops themselves invading your lands and you getting threatened from fighting back and so, it wasn't helping.

Not to mention that there was this huge pyramid scheme running around your lands saying people will go to hell if they don't buy Heaven Premiums with all their money, the microtransactions were arranged so that no matter how much money you had it was always the best to give it all up for Rome.

It actually hurt the economy like hell, imagine if in US something like 30% of the people spent all their available spending money and then some to build a massive cathedral in Rome?

And what hurts the economy also hurts the local taxation. Money was bleeding out and taxes were dropping as Rome kept reinventing better and better schemes for collecting money.
Map{Snip}
This maps nicely shows two regions, one hit by Catholicism and one hit by communism. As we can see, communism results in absolute poverty, Catholicism merely lesser growth than Protestantism.

There was a good point in sociology made - religions don't result from their countries but countries are shaped by their religions. Every protestant country is a Switzerland or England, every Catholic country is a Italy or Poland,.. and just look at the Muslim countries, sigh.
Quote:
Religion and Economic Success in Europe

Why does the idea persist that Europe’s Catholic nations have always been economic slow-growers?
By Luis Francisco Martínez Montes, June 2, 2012
https://www.theglobalist.com/religion-a ... in-europe/

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 Post subject: Re: Northern Lutheranism
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:03 am 
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I know a recent reason why south Europe is catching up:

EU.

We in the north must cough up cash for the southern countries so they can grow their economies while having lower taxes, meanwhile we must not just provide for ourselves but also for them.

We got rid of Rome but we got Berlin in it's stead, once more telling that "for solidarity sake" we must give billions of free cash.

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