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 Post subject: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:12 am 
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In the Movie Forum there a thread about a Russian Movie Hard to be God it's a tale about scientists from earth going to another planet to watch and record it's age of enlightenment. But something stopped it and intellectuals were killed, exiled, and treated like scum. People purposely acted stupid so they wouldn't be seen as intellectuals.

There was an era on earth called 'Islam's Golden Age' where Islam was the center of all intellectual thought. Then it ended, what caused the end? The linked article sez it was a Mongol invasion. Most western historians feel it was because of this man, Imam Al-Ghazali:
Quote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 5dfd728978

Science flourished in the Golden Age of Islam because of a strong rationalist and liberal tradition, carried on by a group of Muslim thinkers known as the Mutazilites.

But in the 12th century, Muslim orthodoxy reawakened, spearheaded by the Arab cleric Imam Al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali championed revelation over reason, predestination over free will. He damned mathematics as being against Islam, an intoxicant of the mind that weakened faith.

Caught in the viselike grip of orthodoxy, Islam choked. No longer would Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars gather and work together in the royal courts. It was the end of tolerance, intellect and science in the Muslim world. The last great Muslim thinker, Abd-al Rahman Ibn Khaldun, belonged to the 14th century.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world moved on. The Renaissance brought an explosion of scientific inquiry in the West.
(Continued)
Even now Islam is still anti intellectual as is pointed out in this video

At about 6:00 he get to what he feels is the reason.
Why did the people of the planet rejected enlightenment?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:56 pm 
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abradley wrote:
In the Movie Forum there a thread about a Russian Movie Hard to be God it's a tale about scientists from earth going to another planet to watch and record it's age of enlightenment. But something stopped it and intellectuals were killed, exiled, and treated like scum. People purposely acted stupid so they wouldn't be seen as intellectuals.

There was an era on earth called 'Islam's Golden Age' where Islam was the center of all intellectual thought. Then it ended, what caused the end? The linked article sez it was a Mongol invasion. Most western historians feel it was because of this man, Imam Al-Ghazali:
Quote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 5dfd728978

Science flourished in the Golden Age of Islam because of a strong rationalist and liberal tradition, carried on by a group of Muslim thinkers known as the Mutazilites.

But in the 12th century, Muslim orthodoxy reawakened, spearheaded by the Arab cleric Imam Al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali championed revelation over reason, predestination over free will. He damned mathematics as being against Islam, an intoxicant of the mind that weakened faith.

Caught in the viselike grip of orthodoxy, Islam choked. No longer would Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars gather and work together in the royal courts. It was the end of tolerance, intellect and science in the Muslim world. The last great Muslim thinker, Abd-al Rahman Ibn Khaldun, belonged to the 14th century.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world moved on. The Renaissance brought an explosion of scientific inquiry in the West.
(Continued)
Even now Islam is still anti intellectual as is pointed out in this video

At about 6:00 he get to what he feels is the reason.
Why did the people of the planet rejected enlightenment?

I just wonder why deGrasse Tyson does not mention what happened in China after the first quarter of the 15th century.

I also have to wonder that you don't see the message for today, that nothing good comes from the anti-science tendencies today in the US and some other countries. But perhaps it is the time for China to regain the supremacy lost by myopic, isolationist policies starting during the the later 15th century.

Fearful Trump will intervene, government scientists leak climate change study to the media. Some braves still around. :roll:

MAGAIT.

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:37 pm 
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nero wrote:

I just wonder why deGrasse Tyson does not mention what happened in China after the first quarter of the 15th century.

I also have to wonder that you don't see the message for today, that nothing good comes from the anti-science tendencies today in the US and some other countries. But perhaps it is the time for China to regain the supremacy lost by myopic, isolationist policies starting during the the later 15th century.

Fearful Trump will intervene, government scientists leak climate change study to the media. Some braves still around. :roll:

MAGAIT.


Nero said:
Quote:
I also have to wonder that you don't see the message for today, that nothing good comes from the anti-science tendencies today in the US and some other countries.


If you bothered looking at the original You Tube upload, you would see that it was dated Apr 14, 2012.
So presumably, this lecture was on April 14, 2012 OR earlier.
Unless Tyson is a time traveller he could not speak to what is going on TODAY, when the lecture was given in 2012.

Furthermore, the topic of the lecture was about "...how religious fundamentalism is the root of the collapse of the Islamic Golden age of Science and Mathematics in Baghdad". Discussing the alleged "anti-science tendencies today in the US and some other countries" would have been off topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:58 pm 
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nero wrote:
I just wonder why deGrasse Tyson does not mention what happened in China after the first quarter of the 15th century.

I also have to wonder that you don't see the message for today, that nothing good comes from the anti-science tendencies today in the US and some other countries. But perhaps it is the time for China to regain the supremacy lost by myopic, isolationist policies starting during the the later 15th century.

Fearful Trump will intervene, government scientists leak climate change study to the media. Some braves still around. :roll:

MAGAIT.
Yes, it is puzzling that he doesn't mention the Fundamentalist holding crosses high while marching thru our cities chanting 'Down with science.' Pain in the Ass, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:57 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
I just wonder why deGrasse Tyson does not mention what happened in China after the first quarter of the 15th century.

I also have to wonder that you don't see the message for today, that nothing good comes from the anti-science tendencies today in the US and some other countries. But perhaps it is the time for China to regain the supremacy lost by myopic, isolationist policies starting during the the later 15th century.

Fearful Trump will intervene, government scientists leak climate change study to the media. Some braves still around. :roll:

MAGAIT.
Yes, it is puzzling that he doesn't mention the Fundamentalist holding crosses high while marching thru our cities chanting 'Down with science.' Pain in the Ass, right?

Not exactly down with science, but down with evolution, down with climate science.

Sounds familiar, eh.. :roll:

So it goes.

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:29 pm 
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nero wrote:
Not exactly down with science, but down with evolution, down with climate science.

Sounds familiar, eh.. :roll:

So it goes.
Yes, those are specific issues ... not a condemnation of science.

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Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:43 pm 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
Not exactly down with science, but down with evolution, down with climate science.

Sounds familiar, eh.. :roll:

So it goes.
Yes, those are specific issues ... not a condemnation of science.

I would't be so sure with climate science. All the conspiracy theories about climate scientists being in only for the money, and there is no warming at all according to right wing stink tanks.

And now the President of the US of America telling that global warming is just a hoax.

Let us see what will happen... :roll:

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:07 pm 
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nero wrote:
I would't be so sure with climate science. All the conspiracy theories about climate scientists being in only for the money, and there is no warming at all according to right wing stink tanks.

And now the President of the US of America telling that global warming is just a hoax.

Let us see what will happen... :roll:
Most agree there is a warming, what's causing it is the question?

As to the fixes as agreed to by Obama, IIRC they agreed that the first world had to cut back, costing billions, but the second and third world were free to pollute all they wanted so they could catch up with us, pure stupid. Where is the fix likely to come from? Congo?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am 
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"Evolution" isn't "science" you fucking Finnish moron.

Evolution is a theory of the origin of biological diversity. This theory has been subjected to much scientific inquiry and has yet to ever face any serious detracting or negating evidence.

Biology, chemisty, physics, psychology, geology, paleontology, ecology . . . these are sciences.

"Climate science" also is not "science," though that is because it fails to adhere to the core of the scientific method: strict use of hypothetico-deductive approach (or as close as reality will allow). Use of experimentation as much as possible. Total transparency. A foundation built on well-founded empirical generalizations. Focus on expanding knowledge by proposing and examining falsifiable hypotheses.

Now, back to the topic of abradley's thread . . . I have no idea why Islam became anti-rationality, though to be honest I'm not sure how "pro-rationality" the religion was in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Islam's golden age ended?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:28 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
"Evolution" isn't "science" you fucking Finnish moron.

Evolution is a theory of the origin of biological diversity. This theory has been subjected to much scientific inquiry and has yet to ever face any serious detracting or negating evidence.

Biology, chemisty, physics, psychology, geology, paleontology, ecology . . . these are sciences.

"Climate science" also is not "science," though that is because it fails to adhere to the core of the scientific method: strict use of hypothetico-deductive approach (or as close as reality will allow). Use of experimentation as much as possible. Total transparency. A foundation built on well-founded empirical generalizations. Focus on expanding knowledge by proposing and examining falsifiable hypotheses.

Now, back to the topic of abradley's thread . . . I have no idea why Islam became anti-rationality, though to be honest I'm not sure how "pro-rationality" the religion was in the first place.


Also, nero is quick to attack US while ignoring that there are about the same percentage of bible thumping creationists and science deniers in Finland. As far as anti-vaccination and pseudoscience and anti-science goes, Helsinki is actually one of the hotbeds in the country for unscientific and anti-scientific thinking. It's not the hillbilly country where people stopped getting their children vaccinated, force them to eat only vegetables and so. It's the capital. Capital is also where the Red Green movement has almost all of it's support and supporters. Not a lot of anti-vaccers where I am, only a handful of creationists but at least they too get their kids vaccinated so they don't run around spreading diseases or bringing back ones that we've already eradicated.

It's almost as if he thought that Finland with it's past PISA records is some miracle land of education and reason. It's the same as everywhere else, you could be an engineer or a programmer or even a professor at university and you could still believe in the most ridiculous bullshit there is, such as haunted houses etc.

Which reminds me, there was a great article on YLE about rationality versus intelligence. Very intelligent and highly educated people can be idiots when it comes to rational behavior. You can have an IQ of 170 and you can still be wearing a tinfoil hat because you think that all the leaders are reptilians wearing human skin.

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