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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:04 am 
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nero wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
I remember there was a time I was wondering at the level of insults thrown back and forth.
...
Essentially it seems these days Nazi means a person who disagrees with nero. Then before you know it you become a Holocaust denier too. And it's not possible that the people in Helsinki trend towards aggressive cunts with their median behavior. They are just as good at spotting Nazis as nero is.

[humor]
Of course in my infinite wisdom I am always right, and those who disagree are either insane or criminal. ;)

Which category you are in? :lol:
[/humor]

But I am really confused about your anarcho-fascist national populism. Are you empowered now with Allahaho? :roll:

I still trust we are on the same side on the essential things, that I don't have to mention here. And actually we don't much disagree on the muslim migrants either.

Then I admit that I am allergic to nazis, I have seen them before and I see them now. And didn't like them before and I don't like them now.

Tosi on.


How do I position myself on the multidimensional space of political axii?

I don't. I will be the first to admit that I have a passionate affair with anarchism. Do I know that we ever could form a functional society based on it? Could we make an anarchist society that produced more utility to it's members than current democratic capitalism?

What I feel is that we could easily be throwing the baby out with the washing water. While the idea is beautiful, a leaderless society of equal peers, I wouldn't know which way to go - communism or free market capitalism or something from between? There are so many open questions. Above all, I recognize that any movement to establish an anarchy could be hijacked by a charismatic leader (tm) who could, say, suddenly end up promoting totalitarian extreme green communism, essentially a mix between Amish and USSR. There are so many things that could go wrong.

Also, how does an anarchy resist external influence? There will always be charismatic people who will influence large portions of the people, you get the most influential speaker on board and you can dictate the Free Territory from outside. Many people tend to gravitate towards charismatic people so they can externalize their values and decision making, offshore them to these influential people.

Fascism?

A wise man said once

"Wisdom begins from acknowledgement of facts"
-Paasikivi, president of Republic of Finland.

Where I live in one of the churches nearby it reads above the door
"Wisdom begins from fear of God"

Authoritarian nationalism has been instrumental historically in why Europeans formed such a secular if divided civilization with every tribe yearning for their own sovereign nation. As opposed to what Middle-East is today, we had Inquisition in Europe, we burned people on stake, tortured them, crushed them, did all sorts of things. Early would be scientists were prosecuted in the name of religion.

The authority of European sovereigns and lords was instrumental in breaking the rule of Rome and later as these fascist European states competed with each other the value of science was understood as it was found out that by promoting science their armies would be rewarded with better weapons, their populations would grow faster, their ships could be built bigger and equipped with better cannons, even their telescopes and optics would improve.

All this while undermining the authority of religion and the Church.

We cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that many of Europe's greatest upheavals occurred under fascism and due to militaristic fascism. Had the countries been more at peace, less rivalry and less militant and more focused on pursuit of spiritualism we might not have ever seen such a level of scientific advancement due to religious oppression.

Fascism is interesting in that it's many implementions range from some of the most efficient to some of the most devastating societies in history.

Quite simply, for example if you want to get rid of drug cartels and drugs - there are few alternatives to fascism in efficiency. Want to limit the impact of leftists and religious lunatics at the same time, want to keep the nation on course? Few societies are as efficient as fascist ones.

Yet I would not live in one if I could choose, as I've pointed out. That doesn't mean that I am not aware of the weakness of our current democratic system towards external influences and threats. It is easy to gain influence to a country's internal matters when you only need to compromise 40 people or so. It is easy for such a society to lose focus when 'world saving' Green Reds dominate education and journalism for purposes of political struggle and ideology. Even to become blind and unable to react to things that cause great harm to their people, which they "must weather" for some ideological pipe dream.

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:15 am 
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nelmsm wrote:
Well at least he didn't call you a Nazi idiot.



Too early after being called out on it. Couldn't have THAT in the same quote block! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:25 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
nelmsm wrote:
Well at least he didn't call you a Nazi idiot.



Too early after being called out on it. Couldn't have THAT in the same quote block! :lol:

Not wasting effort on you. You are just scavenger, who does not have anything to give, just for the carcass. Just like a Hyena.

Image

Ha, ha, ha.

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Quote:
Kameolontti wrote:
{Snip}


I'll start with "Wisdom begins from acknowledgement of facts"
-Paasikivi, president of Republic of Finland."

Where do I get these facts?

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:35 am 
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abradley wrote:
Quote:
Kameolontti wrote:
{Snip}


I'll start with "Wisdom begins from acknowledgement of facts"
-Paasikivi, president of Republic of Finland."

Where do I get these facts?


There are facts, there are conclusions and there are opinions.

A fact is that WW II happened. Another fact is that a typical main battle tank costs, say, 3-8 million $ and has most of it's armor on it's front.

If for example a given wee nation has a military budget of 1 billion $. If the nation has certain GDP, a fact, we can conclude what it's maximum sustainable military spending is - roughly. It becomes an opinion when you say that it should increase or decrease the spending amount, also if you claim that there's a specific maximum number it is also an opinion since the facts don't support that specific conclusions - since economics are more guide lines like 'pirate law' than hard science like law of gravity. Their precision isn't sufficient to give out exact results but they can give rough estimates such that "if we get too much debt we will eventually be unable to afford the interests", "certain types of policies in general tend to benefit economic growth" or even "politics is about deciding what to do with surplus produce".

We can have facts like "it would be nigh impossible to win militarily against country X". Someone who is a military planner might be able to reach a conclusion "we will be able to continue effective resistance for x-y months".

Paasikivi arrived with a fact that it would be bad for Finland to ever get into a military conflict with Soviet Union. There was no possible imaginable benefit. Thus it became a cornerstone of his policies to avoid war to a great extent - but not indefinitely. Eventually certain involvement and pressure would for a fact result in the same consequences as a war. This resulted in that given the opinions of the people that they did not want to be subjects to communist totalitarianism and oppression resulted in a fact that for Soviet Union to push far enough Paasikivi would eventually cease to bend further - that there was a limit to how much he could be bent after which no ultimatum would yield additional gains.

For opinions of other people can be facts like cost of equipment. Opinions can be harder to change than the cost of military equipment. It is my conclusion that because we have differing opinions we are destined to arrive at conflict with each other where we it is determined by rationality and circumstances to which extent the conflict will be attempted to be resolved.
If you are rational you will weigh facts more than conclusions and conclusions more than opinions. If you're an ideologist or a fanatic you will value opinions.

Some of the worst opinions to have are:
"We will triumph because justice is on our side"
"Our god will allow us to win, no matter the odds"
"Any cost is acceptable, our cause demands war"
"Our warrior spirit or superior morals will lead us to victory"

These kinds of opinions can lead people to start military action against almost impossible odds. Say, Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
"Umm, they have more factories and more everything"
-"Nonsense, Amelicans awe cowboys and prayboys! We have wallior spilit and molars!"

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:11 pm 
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nero wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:


Too early after being called out on it. Couldn't have THAT in the same quote block! :lol:


Not wasting effort on you. You are just scavenger, who does not have anything to give, just for the carcass. Just like a Hyena.

Image

Ha, ha, ha.



Awww. Poor thing. Well, you DID waste time on me. :mrgreen:


And still no nazi/fascist name calling? You must be bursting at the seam with those being pent up this long! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:24 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
nero wrote:
...
Not wasting effort on you. You are just scavenger, who does not have anything to give, just for the carcass. Just like a Hyena.

Image

Ha, ha, ha.



Awww. Poor thing. Well, you DID waste time on me. :mrgreen:
...

I can always spend five seconds for you. :mrgreen:

NefariousKoel wrote:
...
And still no nazi/fascist name calling? You must be bursting at the seam with those being pent up this long! :P

It is all up to you. Try harder. ;)

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
I'll start with "Wisdom begins from acknowledgement of facts"
-Paasikivi, president of Republic of Finland."

Where do I get these facts?

There are facts, there are conclusions and there are opinions.

A fact is that WW II happened. Another fact is that a typical main battle tank costs, say, 3-8 million $ and has most of it's armor on it's front.
{Snip}
Quite a jump from previously unmentioned WW2 and main battle tanks to religion, yes?

Based on facts, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Three pages and nobody has mentioned Nero is a dumb ass?

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 Post subject: Re: Nero
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:56 am 
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doggie wrote:
Three pages and nobody has mentioned Nero is a dumb ass?


It's a given.

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