maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:51 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


It's the Gulag of Fun



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why the West?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:45 am 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282
This is a continuation of my 'Reading' post viewtopic.php?p=300038#p300038 where I posted "Great read, IMHO the only flaw is his theory is too geography based." In other words he down played this:

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:57 am 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282
The above leads into:


Next Rodney Stark

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:02 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282
Forgot to post the link where the Ibn Warraq video came from


It's from an IQ2 debate and surprisingly the good guys prevailed.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:20 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282


Rodney Stark's book is excellent in that he includes the full spectrum, especially social.

The above is a podcast including ads and all ... but very, very interesting.

Below is:
Quote:
A Review of How the West Won. By Rodney Stark.
Jun 6, 2014
ISI, 2014.

There are some authors you know will not disappoint, and you so very eagerly await their next volume. Historian and sociologist of religion Rodney Stark is one such writer whose growing library of books are utterly indispensible if you want to get an accurate view of the world we live in.

stark 3The sad truth is, there are all sorts of revisionists out there, especially the historical revisionists. And their contempt for Western civilisation has led them to rewrite the history books, putting their own skewed secular left agenda on everything.

Dozens of such myths and cases of revisionism are tackled by Stark. As he traces in broad brush – yet with copious detail – the rise of the West, of progress, of modernity, he deftly deals with plenty of “absurd, politically correct fabrications” along the way. And throughout he demonstrates the “positive effects of Christianity” on all this.

For example, while noting the many great achievements of ancient Greece, he reminds us of its darker side. Consider this: the economies “of all the Greek city-states rested on extensive slavery. In many, including Athens, slaves probably outnumbered the free citizens.” He reminds us that no Greek philosopher had a problem with this, and it took the rise of Christianity a millennium later in medieval Europe to push for the abolition of slavery.

Consider the old canard about the “Dark Ages”. It is common to believe this was a period of ignorance and superstition, to be rescued by the Enlightenment. This, says Stark, is “a complete fraud”. Instead, this was a period of remarkable progress, innovation and advancement.

He goes on to detail the many changes and advances which took place during this period. “It was during the supposed Dark Ages that Europe took the great technological and intellectual leaps forward that put it ahead of the rest of the world.”

The high culture of the Carolingian Renaissance from the late eight century and the incredible Gothic period can also be mentioned. The latter gave us Chartres Cathedral and the Van Eycks for example. Hardly a barbaric and dark age with all that occurring.

Myths about the Crusades also abound, and Stark has already penned an entire volume on this back in 2009. He reminds us what Islamic atrocities precipitated all this, and how this was not about the pursuit of land and loot: “The truth is the Crusaders made enormous financial sacrifices to go – expenditures that they had no expectations of making back.”

Think also about the rise of modern science. “The truth is that science arose only because the doctrine of a rational creator of a rational universe made scientific inquiry possible. Similarly, the idea of progress was inherent in Jewish conceptions of history and was central to Christian thought from very early days.”

And again, “Advances in both science and technology occurred not in spite of Christianity but because of it. Contrary to conventional wisdom, science did not suddenly flourish once Europe cast aside religious ‘superstitions’ during the so-called Enlightenment. Science arose in the West—and only in the West—precisely because the Judeo-Christian conception of God encouraged and even demanded this pursuit.”
(Continued)
https://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/06/06/ ... ney-stark/

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:43 am 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282
Am now reading 'The Victory of reason':
Quote:
The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success
By: Rodney Stark
RANDOM HOUSE / 2006
Bob rated it really liked it · 4 star
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/70 ... ction=true
The reigning perception of Christianity in the academy is of a faith that is the enemy of reason from which enlightenment humanism liberated us. Rodney Stark would contend that this is a characterization without basis in fact. In The Victory of Reason he argues that the distinctive progress of the west in science, technology, commerce, human rights, and democratic institutions can be traced back to the distinctive character of Christian belief.

What is more intriguing is that he argues that this emerged during what is often called "The Dark Ages" following the decline and fall of the Roman empire. Stark argues that it was the fall of the empire that in fact liberated Christian thought in ways that led to the progress noted above. During this period, free market commerce emerged in enclaves free from state interference in both Italy and parts of northern Europe. Technological innovation drove improved productivity. And the universities arose out of church cathedral schools to promote higher learning. All before the Renaissance or the Reformation, which he would argue were merely the fruit of the ground prepared by the church in the preceding millennium.

But what is it about Christian belief that fosters such openness to reason and its applications and to progress? Stark's primary argument is that Christianity is not a static revelation fixed for all time, but an evolving understanding of truth that is open to discursive reason and to progress over time. His case study for this is the church's response to usury and the creation of lending vehicles to fuel the growth of commerce without violating sacred teaching.

He goes on to argue that what hinders the victory of reason translated into material and technological progress is the presence of tyranny--either governments or guilds which restrict economic incentives or rob people of the rights of the fruit of their work. He contrasts Spain and England and their respective colonies in this regard, finally concluding with the connection between religious faith and the profound economic growth witnessed in pre-and post-revolutionary war periods in this country.

There is much in what Stark argues with which I agree. I wholly agree with his contention that Christianity provides the seedbed for the rise of reason and the scientific enterprise as well as concern for human rights and democratic institutions. I suspect, however, that his thesis is open to criticism on several fronts. One is the rise of authoritarian church institutions--is Christian belief too weak to prevent these. The second is the rise of tyrannous rule in "Christian" countries and the use of Christianity to justify tyranny. Finally, there is the question of Christian responses when revelation and reason appear to conflict--particularly efforts seeking to suppress free inquiry. I do not see Stark addressing these "counterfactuals", and perhaps he could not in a work of this size for an educated general audience. I think all of these objections can be met in a way that do not detract from his thesis, and because of this believe this a valuable addition countering popular misconceptions of Christian faith. (less)n.
and the opposite view:
Quote:
Socraticgadfly rated it did not like it 1 star
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/48 ... ction=true
When Stark can make broad-sweeping, but not very accurate statements such as "Capitalism was developed by the great monastic estates," you know to buckle your seat belts, you're in for a historically bumpy ride.

Here, as in "For the Glory of God," Stark claims to be rehabilitating Christian religious history from people labeled as militant atheists and others who are always implied to be inaccurate rewriters of history.

Well, if you read my more in-depth review of that book, you'll see that, while I note Stark does have some tidbits of factual learning to toss out, between unhistorically re-reporting old myths as fact, tossing out opinion as fact, and other strategems, he is often the rewriter of history himself.

======

It is true that capitalism as we know it first arose in the "Christian West." But Stark makes a huge logical error, in addition to his historical ones.

He assumes without warrant that a statistical correlation implies a logical one.

First, the theoretical defenders and exponents of modern capitalism, such as Adam Smith, were not orthodox Christians but Deists. (In "For the Glory of God," Stark can airbrush someone like Isaac Newton into an orthdox Christian, touching up his Unitarian delvings into the Trinity and even ignoring his fascination with mystical fringe science or beyond.

====

Next would be the borderline intellectual dishonesty of trying to reread (or perhaps we should say, sociologically retranslate) people such as Scholastic philosophers Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquinas as though they had just graduated the University of Chicago or the Wharton School of Business. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it should be done, that it produces any real insight or that it is otherwise valuable.

=====

In short, unless you are a fairly conservative Christian seeking a academic justification for an "us vs. them" mindset that, if it went much further, might come close to the Stalinist USSR in defending Christian creativity, feel free to skip this book. (less)
Then there's this:
Quote:
Rodney Stark’s idiotic history
Posted by John S. Wilkins on September 6, 2008
(39)



More »
Thony Christie, a regular commenter on this blog, is also a historian of science, and he sent the following guest post that I thought well worth publishing.

Commentator ?Adam? asked John?s opinion on a book he is reading, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark, saying that he himself was not knowledgeable enough to judge this work. He then produced three short quotes from the book as representative of Stark?s thesis. John dismissed the quotes in his usual pithy style; From what you quote, it is about 100% wrong.

(Continued)
http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthought ... c-history/
Interesting dismissal of Stark's views.
Didn't include the whole of the article, to long. It's got some good back and forth in the comments section from guys with some education in the history of science.

Worth a read.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:20 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282
Quote:
SPENGLER
Are Some Cultures Superior?
BY DAVID P. GOLDMAN AUGUST 30, 2017
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/08/30 ... -superior/


Yes.

And that's what I've been saying for some time, Our Judaeo-Christian culture is the world leader.

Ibn Warraq is saying the same in the opening post, we shouldn't be ashamed ... we're the leader.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:50 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 13101
Reputation points: 2526
What is your problem now?

:roll:

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:31 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14300
Reputation points: 9282
nero wrote:
What is your problem now?

:roll:
Nothing, just like to remind everybody we've got a powerful base to work from.

Ain't talking religion, rather our whole culture.

It's why we're top dog in the world.

All the other cultures make excuses as to why the west is ahead.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:46 pm 
Online
First Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 9458
Location: inside your worst nightmare
Reputation points: 10688
There is one I only made it part way through before I got distracted that you might like Abrad:

From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 Year of Western Cultural Life

_________________
Nero: So what is your challenge?

Anthro: Answer question #2: How do "Climate Change models" mathematically control for the natural forces which caused the Ice Age(s) to come and go . . . repeatedly?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why the West?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:32 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 13101
Reputation points: 2526
abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
What is your problem now?

:roll:
Nothing, just like to remind everybody we've got a powerful base to work from.

Ain't talking religion, rather our whole culture.

It's why we're top dog in the world.

All the other cultures make excuses as to why the west is ahead.

Image

Anything else?

Of course there is.

Where did all start, culture I mean. There is so much old thing, unknown things.

Persian gulf was dry land 9000 years ago. The sea level was 100 meters lower than now.

There are so many unknown unknowns. ;)

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group