maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:12 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


It's the Gulag of Fun



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:18 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14041
Reputation points: 8782
nero wrote:
I have seen a documentary telling that the thing is a hoax made no less that Leonardo Da Vinci. ;)

Examine it, all of it with modern science. ;)
de Vinci hmmm? The Shroud was carbon dated to the 13th-14th century, de Vinci lived in the 15th-16th century ... Yes, definitely investigate there may be time travel involved. ;)

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:25 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 12826
Reputation points: 2776
abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
I have seen a documentary telling that the thing is a hoax made no less that Leonardo Da Vinci. ;)

Examine it, all of it with modern science. ;)
de Vinci hmmm? The Shroud was carbon dated to the 13th-14th century, de Vinci lived in the 15th-16th century ... Yes, definitely investigate there may be time travel involved. ;)

I said that I have seen a documentary, not that I believe in it. But then Da Vinci was not a fool, of course he would have old cloth, antic cloth for is experiment.

The only way to find out the truth is scientific examination.

How about that?

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:59 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14041
Reputation points: 8782
nero wrote:
I said that I have seen a documentary, not that I believe in it. But then Da Vinci was not a fool, of course he would have old cloth, antic cloth for is experiment.

The only way to find out the truth is scientific examination.

How about that?
Agree, but the pope decides.

As far as a full scientific examination that was done:
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of ... ly_studies
Early studies[edit]

The initial steps towards the scientific study of the shroud were taken soon after the first set of black and white photographs became available early in the 20th century. In 1902 Yves Delage, a French professor of comparative anatomy, published the first study on the subject.[78] Delage declared the image anatomically flawless and argued that the features of rigor mortis, wounds, and blood flows were evidence that the image was formed by direct or indirect contact with a corpse. William Meacham mentions several other medical studies between 1936 and 1981 that agree with Delage.[5] However, these were all indirect studies without access to the shroud itself.

The first direct examination of the shroud by a scientific team was undertaken in 1969–1973 in order to advise on preservation of the shroud and determine specific testing methods. This led to the appointment of an 11-member Turin Commission to advise on the preservation of the relic and on specific testing. Five of the commission members were scientists, and preliminary studies of samples of the fabric were conducted in 1973.[5]

In 1976 physicist John P. Jackson, thermodynamicist Eric Jumper and photographer William Mottern used image analysis technologies developed in aerospace science for analyzing the images of the Shroud. In 1977 these three scientists and over thirty others formed the Shroud of Turin Research Project. In 1978 this group, often called STURP, was given direct access to the Shroud.

Also in 1978, independently of the STURP research, prof. Giovanni Tamburelli obtained at CSELT a 3D-elaboration from the Shroud with higher resolution than Jumper and Mottern. A second result of Tamburelli was the electronic removal from the image of the "blood" that apparently covers the face.[80]
The scientific study is covered in the opening and following posts.

And I repeat, proving the Shroud real or hoax doesn't change Christian doctrine, I believed that Jesus was the Christ since I was a teen, before knowing about the Shroud ... how does the Shroud change that?

As for relics, ect., IIRC there was a Medieval Indian saint who died and was buried, years later for some reason they had to dig him up and he was physically preserved, the other bodies in the grave yard weren't ... miracle! ... years later they discovered he'd been buried in earth with high preservative chemicals.

But I do think the Shroud is interesting, both religiously and scientifically.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:15 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 12826
Reputation points: 2776
abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
I said that I have seen a documentary, not that I believe in it. But then Da Vinci was not a fool, of course he would have old cloth, antic cloth for is experiment.

The only way to find out the truth is scientific examination.

How about that?
Agree, but the pope decides.

As far as a full scientific examination that was done:
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of ... ly_studies
Early studies[edit]

The initial steps towards the scientific study of the shroud were taken soon after the first set of black and white photographs became available early in the 20th century. In 1902 Yves Delage, a French professor of comparative anatomy, published the first study on the subject.[78] Delage declared the image anatomically flawless and argued that the features of rigor mortis, wounds, and blood flows were evidence that the image was formed by direct or indirect contact with a corpse. William Meacham mentions several other medical studies between 1936 and 1981 that agree with Delage.[5] However, these were all indirect studies without access to the shroud itself.

The first direct examination of the shroud by a scientific team was undertaken in 1969–1973 in order to advise on preservation of the shroud and determine specific testing methods. This led to the appointment of an 11-member Turin Commission to advise on the preservation of the relic and on specific testing. Five of the commission members were scientists, and preliminary studies of samples of the fabric were conducted in 1973.[5]

In 1976 physicist John P. Jackson, thermodynamicist Eric Jumper and photographer William Mottern used image analysis technologies developed in aerospace science for analyzing the images of the Shroud. In 1977 these three scientists and over thirty others formed the Shroud of Turin Research Project. In 1978 this group, often called STURP, was given direct access to the Shroud.

Also in 1978, independently of the STURP research, prof. Giovanni Tamburelli obtained at CSELT a 3D-elaboration from the Shroud with higher resolution than Jumper and Mottern. A second result of Tamburelli was the electronic removal from the image of the "blood" that apparently covers the face.[80]
The scientific study is covered in the opening and following posts.

And I repeat, proving the Shroud real or hoax doesn't change Christian doctrine, I believed that Jesus was the Christ since I was a teen, before knowing about the Shroud ... how does the Shroud change that?

As for relics, ect., IIRC there was a Medieval Indian saint who died and was buried, years later for some reason they had to dig him up and he was physically preserved, the other bodies in the grave yard weren't ... miracle! ... years later they discovered he'd been buried in earth with high preservative chemicals.

But I do think the Shroud is interesting, both religiously and scientifically.

I think that Pope Frank should do it. Come hell or high water.

If fake, just a fake. If not a miracle.

Nothing to lose, perhaps.

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:30 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14041
Reputation points: 8782
nero wrote:
I think that Pope Frank should do it. Come hell or high water.

If fake, just a fake. If not a miracle.

Nothing to lose, perhaps.
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle
A miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws.[1] Such an event may be attributed to a supernatural being (a deity), magic, a miracle worker, a saint or a religious leader.

Informally, the word "miracle" is often used to characterise any beneficial event that is statistically unlikely but not contrary to the laws of nature, such as surviving a natural disaster, or simply a "wonderful" occurrence, regardless of likelihood, such as a birth. Other such miracles might be: survival of an illness diagnosed as terminal, escaping a life-threatening situation or 'beating the odds'. Some coincidences may be seen as miracles.[2]

A true miracle would, by definition, be a non-natural phenomenon, leading many rational and scientific thinkers to dismiss them as physically impossible (that is, requiring violation of established laws of physics within their domain of validity) or impossible to confirm by their nature (because all possible physical mechanisms can never be ruled out). The former position is expressed for instance by Thomas Jefferson and the latter by David Hume. Theologians typically say that, with divine providence, God regularly works through nature yet, as a creator, is free to work without, above, or against it as well. The possibility and probability of miracles are then equal to the possibility and probability of the existence of God.[3]
IIRC the Catholic church shys away from declaring miracles, especially in cases like this. Declare a miracle then the next day it's explained naturally ... what do they do, un-declare it ...
:roll: .

Yes, investigate, and then, as now, leave it to individuals to decide.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:58 pm 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14041
Reputation points: 8782
nero wrote:
C{Snip}

But another question is how would Pope Frank react in case of extraterrestrial intelligence is found?

Think about that. What would Jesus say?

:mrgreen:
Quote:
Could Catholicism handle the discovery of extraterrestrial life?
Claire GiangravèFebruary 23, 2017 EDITORIAL ASSISTANT
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/ ... rial-life/
No problem.
What, me worry.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:28 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 12826
Reputation points: 2776
abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
C{Snip}

But another question is how would Pope Frank react in case of extraterrestrial intelligence is found?

Think about that. What would Jesus say?

:mrgreen:
Quote:
Could Catholicism handle the discovery of extraterrestrial life?
Claire GiangravèFebruary 23, 2017 EDITORIAL ASSISTANT
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/ ... rial-life/
No problem.
What, me worry.

Yeah, you think that pope francis an extraterrestrial. :lol:

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:36 am 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14041
Reputation points: 8782
nero wrote:
Yeah, you think that pope francis an extraterrestrial. :lol:
No.

Just an advocate of Liberation Theology.

It looks like Malachi Martin was right

Quote:
The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church
by Malachi Martin
3.97 · Rating Details · 208 Ratings · 25 Reviews
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/664440.The_Jesuits
In The Jesuits, Malachi Martin reveals for the first time the harrowing behind-the-scenes story of the "new" worldwide Society of Jesus. The leaders and the dupes; the blood and the pathos; the politics, the betrayals and the humiliations; the unheard-of alliances and compromises. The Jesuits tells a true story of today that is already changing the face of all our tomorrows.

And this was in 1988.
Quote:
Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church
by Malachi Martin
Reviewed by John C. Campbell
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/ ... lic-church
In This Review
The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church
Malachi Martin
In Latin America, Martin says, an elite organization, which for over four centuries had as its sole purpose the propagation of the Roman Catholic faith and papal authority, has now allied itself with the Sandinista Marxists. By promoting a theology of liberation and class struggle over that of traditional Christian salvation, the Society of Jesus, says the author, has declared open warfare on the very institution it has vowed to defend; rather than convert souls, the order has chosen to promote secular change through revolution and social upheaval. Martin is unique in his ability to relate the ecclesiastic to the geopolitical, and his work affirms the axiom that ideas-political, social and theological-have consequence. James W. Davis, Jr.
Download https://archive.org/details/SecretHisto ... esuits_648
All formats.

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:10 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 12826
Reputation points: 2776
abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
Yeah, you think that pope francis an extraterrestrial. :lol:
No.

Just an advocate of Liberation Theology.

It looks like Malachi Martin was right

Quote:
The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church
by Malachi Martin
3.97 · Rating Details · 208 Ratings · 25 Reviews
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/664440.The_Jesuits
In The Jesuits, Malachi Martin reveals for the first time the harrowing behind-the-scenes story of the "new" worldwide Society of Jesus. The leaders and the dupes; the blood and the pathos; the politics, the betrayals and the humiliations; the unheard-of alliances and compromises. The Jesuits tells a true story of today that is already changing the face of all our tomorrows.

And this was in 1988.
Quote:
Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church
by Malachi Martin
Reviewed by John C. Campbell
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/ ... lic-church
In This Review
The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church
Malachi Martin
In Latin America, Martin says, an elite organization, which for over four centuries had as its sole purpose the propagation of the Roman Catholic faith and papal authority, has now allied itself with the Sandinista Marxists. By promoting a theology of liberation and class struggle over that of traditional Christian salvation, the Society of Jesus, says the author, has declared open warfare on the very institution it has vowed to defend; rather than convert souls, the order has chosen to promote secular change through revolution and social upheaval. Martin is unique in his ability to relate the ecclesiastic to the geopolitical, and his work affirms the axiom that ideas-political, social and theological-have consequence. James W. Davis, Jr.
Download https://archive.org/details/SecretHisto ... esuits_648
All formats.

"Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church"? :roll:

Actually it was Roman Catholic Church betraying Jesus.

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:54 am 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 14041
Reputation points: 8782
nero wrote:
"Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church"? :roll:

Actually it was Roman Catholic Church betraying Jesus.
How?

_________________
Even so, never go to a gunfight without a gun and, if you intend to win, never go to a religious war without religion. You'll lose.
tomkratman.com


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group