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 Post subject: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:54 pm 
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I so happen to follow a couple of Syrians on the internet, Lina Arabi on Twitter for example. They are all quite pro-Assad - at least in the sense of Assad not being the devil incarnate like ISIS and the rebels. She's putting up pics of Christmas trees in Syria, something I doubt would be happening in ISIS/Islamist/rebel (?) turf.

Most of them seem super cynical about the rebels, who seem to be pretty damn bloodthirsty.

Yet in Western media, Putler/Assad are up there with Hitler himself and the rebels are painted out as being the nice guys. The fall of Aleppo to Syrian government forces is being painted as being a catastrophe - but I can't help but be a bit sceptical about that. Assad is your garden Middle East strongman but if the alternative is head chopping religious psychopathy then I guess I'm with Assad. But it's clear that the West does not support Assad, and does support the rebels, including groups that seem to be thinly disguised fictions like the Free Syria Army guys.

What do you lot think? Are we the bad guys?

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:24 pm 
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That is a fucking awesome video and an awesome start for a thread.

In the interest not to squelch a fun open dialogue from all points of view, I'll just say . . . "we" (Yanks) are not the bad guys, though you (Brits) might be and they (French) almost certainly are! :mrgreen:

In seriousness . . . (or at least a few degrees more of it) . . . I know exactly what you mean about Assad. He certainly was never a "good guy," but I don't think he is actually as bad as IS (by a long shot) and "the rebels" are so heterogeneous and permeable (especially to Arabian influences) that I suspect Assad is scarcely as bad as any of them . . . or at least not as bad as the worst of them . . . maybe within the 2nd quartile??

I think what Jwilk or 2nd ACR or any of our more classic American pragmatists might argue (though I'm curious to hear them tell us themselves is): sell weapons to all of them, keep out of it and see what happens. If the worst devil wins, then he'll at least have been worn down enough that he'll be easier to take out . . . if the best devil wins, maybe we can even be "friends" with it after the dust settles.

Saddam Hussein (and Napoleon Bonaparte, and countless other villains throughout human history) were initially "freedom fighters!"

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:41 pm 
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I was thinking with regards to foreign policy, especially Syria, before Pamak is in here talking about the evils of kapitalism and the Great Satan. :lol:

I'm with you regarding the whole affair being something we need to stay away from.

But these last few months, things are really starting to get war horny in the mainstream media. The capture of Aleppo by Assad's lot has sent things into overdrive, as it means that means Assad, with Russian help, is now winning. And so presumably whoever the CIA and co. are backing is losing. The little Alex Jones part of the back of my mind is suspicious, and it seems to me we're being prepped to take action against Assad more directly given recent events. And it seems to me that we are on extremely shaky moral ground in so doing. Seems like shades of the Soviet-Afghan war to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:57 pm 
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I'm not comfortable with how cozy Trump seems to be with Putin . . . in actual fact, he may be no more "approving" nor sanctioning of Putin than Obama (or the EU) has been in deed if not in word. Certainly the idea that Hillary would've done anything more than pay lip service to 'cracking down' on the Russians is a fantasy.

Just about the only people who have big enough uterae to stand up to the Russkies are the Finns, but that is understandable given their location and history! :mrgreen:

I wouldn't be surprised if Western "assistance" to "the rebels" was both problematic, and ineffectual, for various reasons, not least of which: the "assistance" being given might well be very half-assed . . . maybe even only tenth-assed . . . I don't have a big problem with any of that, and won't blame Trump if he more or less just continues this legacy: if you do not have a notion of what "victory" would look like, much less the conviction to pursue it at all costs, no point in being committal one way or the other. Just hang back, make vague overtures that keep as few people pissed off as possible and see what happens.

If Assad / Russia "win," meh same shit, different story. If they don't win, ditto. I don't see the U.S. nor the Western powers more generally (with Trump in the White House or anyone else) being so stupid as to get embroiled. "We" put our hand on that "hot stove" twice already in Iraq and Afghanistan; don't think we'll do that again.

At this point, Americans just want to feel GREAT again! :P

Rattling our sabre at China (at some risk that they might nuke Japan or Taiwan or *shudder* South Korea) is about as war mongering as I see the U.S. being in the near future. Most of that is posturing. If the Chinese regime are crazy enough to play chicken to that extent (and Trump is too) then we're likely already on a road to a serious show-down the the Pacific anyway. The Spratleys and the various other forms of piracy which give Trump some real basis of grievance are obviously not worth that much risk to China; they've already got too many internal problems to worry about. Indeed, their whole "Spratley Conquest" is likely just a classic despotic distraction move: "Look at how great we are!" it gives the patriotic recruits something to do, and a place to run the less patriotic recruits through the wringer. It provides trope for people back home to leverage against one another "What! You do not support our great nation and its aspirations for greatness!? I'm reporting you to the commissar" and with a President like Obama, it presented very little "real risk" of action on the part of foreign powers. That calculus changes slightly with Trump in the White House, but it is ultimately a game of brinksmanship and strategic analysis: "What IF they actually did blockade our forces on Fiery Reef? . . . well comrade, short of launching nuclear attacks on Japan and Taiwan and/or South Korea, there is not much we could do about it. They'd make us look like fools and pin us down and then drag it out on the international stage. It would be very hard to hide the truth from the people and it would not be a good thing either at home or abroad . . . I see. Well then! Perhaps the great Chinese nation had best abandon its designs on the militarization of the Spratleys. It is a silly place after all . . ."

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:26 pm 
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China and the US are actually in some sort of economic contest though. So what is discussed between the US and China matters, to the average yank, not just the illuminati guys under the Pentagon with the big map of the world and the pieces being moved around on it in the great game. Sabre rattling or whatever there, you can see that it's in the US interest quite clearly.

Syria though... who really cares? definitely none of our bidness.

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:13 am 
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True. China is a big player in global economics, and the U.S. (and entire Free and "not-so-Free" world) benefits from that . . .

But the entire world _also_ incurs cost from China's global economic playing.

I am certainly no China export, nor a macro-economist . . . but I do try to have at least a basic understanding of the economic part, and keep my finger on the pulse of the China thing.

What I gather, over the past 8 or 10 years (and I've said it on here before multiple times, and have yet to be met either on here or anywhere I glance with contrary evidence): China is a power keg. There is tremendous social disruption, disparity and . . . hidden, throbbing under a layer of decades of totalitarian mind-fuckage . . . disapproval. It is about as gut churning as going in to a museum of Native American History from the Pre-Columbian era to today --> fascinating, long-standing cultures, crushed by various modern hegemonic forces. Some big differences there to be sure, so the analogy has some limitations.

However, the main point of bringing it up: I am not in the LEAST anti-Chinese. The history of China, and the marvels of Chinese culture are mind-boggling, wondrous and precious. CHINA is one of the greatest societies in human history, maybe even THE GREATEST.

The People's Republic of China is, a big fat Jabba the hut rapist with China on leash, wearing a bikini and in danger of being gang raped by all the comrades . . .



Don't worry Princess ChaiLeia . . . Trumpolini will save you! The Force is strong with this one!
Image

. . . sorry . . . this might not have been exactly the path you really wanted this thread to go . . . I'll restrain myself unless you toss me some nods of approval or something :oops:

ADDIT: but seriously. How can anyone look at that beautiful cube of locomoting pink, imagine all those thighs threshing, and NOT be pro-Sino!?

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Nero: So what is your challenge?

Anthro: Answer question #2: How do "Climate Change models" mathematically control for the natural forces which caused the Ice Age(s) to come and go . . . repeatedly?


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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:04 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:08 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


!! :mrgreen: :P :D :lol: !!

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Nero: So what is your challenge?

Anthro: Answer question #2: How do "Climate Change models" mathematically control for the natural forces which caused the Ice Age(s) to come and go . . . repeatedly?


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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:12 pm 
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In any violent conflict everyone is the baddies to someone ... paraphrasing LGEN Longstreet in the Gettysburg movie "pick you baddie side and just put your head down and win" ...

(extra baddie points if some of the sides have god on their side ... )

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 Post subject: Re: Are we the baddies?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:07 am 
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Don't forget the Poles.

They are proud people and fight hard and have no love for Russian overlords - nor European ones for that matter. In that way they're a step ahead of us in their game.

They just suffered what Finns paid hell to avoid - combined assault of Nazis AND Russians from two different directions. Hell, even if US had been there between the two, even they would have had hard times standing against that.

We just have to put up with bad rep from how our leaders back then avoided being double penetrated - Poles faced genocide (Nazis killed all lefties and Russians killed all right wingers and any lefties that they doubted), concentration camps, gulags and half a century of military occupation under ruthless totalitarian regime.



As for are the US the baddies? Islam is at war against US. US is "the great Satan" to them. EU is just a place they can colonize and convert but US is their arch nemesis.

They tried to attack US and now US is paying back by using their powers to make the Islamists bleed as they're sapping each other in their own lands.

As an added bonus of this and due to EU's own auto-emasculation what could have been the greatest technological, commercial and military rival to US, the EU, is being torn apart as well in the wake of the destabilization of Middle East as the instability was sucked in to Europe by EU.

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