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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Paulus and the 6th Army were fucked even before they were encircled at Stalingrad.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:29 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:


Paulus and the 6th Army were fucked even before they were encircled at Stalingrad.


Heh! Arguably they were fucked long before THAT!

What would a "viable" much less a "promising" Operation Barbarossa expeditionary force have looked like after all?

I've always thought it would have looked like:
1. Ditch the Einsatzgruppen, not to mention the whole Liebensraum notion of depopulating the East in order to make way for the super race. The ill-will and partisan resistance caused by this core policy (which is arguably fundamental to the whole Nazi movement) caused enormous strain on the logistic chain from what I understand.

2. Ditch the "Conquer them by taking Moscow" nonsense. Clearly even if they HAD taken and held Moscow (as well as St. Pete, Kiev, and Stalingrad and every other large city in between, the Russians were prepared to soldier on using Ural retreated industrial bases. The brilliant German thinkers should have foreseen that . . . oh wait, maybe the brilliant ones DID, but they were silenced by Der Fuhrer!

3. Take about three to 5 times (maybe more) as many construction and rear-area security elements? Combine that with a policy of NOT antagonizing locals, and instead offering "liberation" from Soviet oppression to entities like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. and maybe the rear area could have been in a position to support continued offensives for a couple years instead of the 2/3rds of one year it actually managed?

Tactically, and in terms of military operations, the Wehrmacht seems to have performed impeccably. But they expected to be able to conquer with a logistics train that was suited for about half or less of what they needed! Not to mention an occupation process which basically turned every able body survivor in the rear area into a partisan! :P

Stupidity on the largest, most horrific, and destructive scale ever imagined . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:34 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:

The welsh are not prepared. It would have much different thing when a goat attacks Greek troopers. :lol:

Image

Pallikaria!

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:03 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:


Paulus and the 6th Army were fucked even before they were encircled at Stalingrad.


-To have the Soviet Russian regime destroyed in 1941-1942 would have been good for all mankind to this day.
--to have Nazi Germany doing the destroying of Soviet Russia regime in 1941-1942 would never have been good for all mankind to this day. (we know the genocidal carnage in rear areas 41-45)
---this is where I agree with Mdiehls WWII (gloating)satisfaction abt Germany's defeat, as did my grandparents born 1903-05 already openly admitted to me 40 years ago, ' it was better we lost the war'.
the pendulum currently has swung too far, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:56 pm 
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NATO wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:


Paulus and the 6th Army were fucked even before they were encircled at Stalingrad.


-To have the Soviet Russian regime destroyed in 1941-1942 would have been good for all mankind to this day.
--to have Nazi Germany doing the destroying of Soviet Russia regime in 1941-1942 would never have been good for all mankind to this day. (we know the genocidal carnage in rear areas 41-45)
---this is where I agree with Mdiehls WWII (gloating) Allied fanboi satisfaction abt Germany's defeat, as did my grandparents born 1903-05 already openly admitted to me 40 years ago, ' it was better we lost the war'.
the pendulum currently has swung too far, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:56 pm 
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NATO wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:


Paulus and the 6th Army were fucked even before they were encircled at Stalingrad.


-To have the Soviet Russian regime destroyed in 1941-1942 would have been good for all mankind to this day.
--to have Nazi Germany doing the destroying of Soviet Russia regime in 1941-1942 would never have been good for all mankind to this day. (we know the genocidal carnage in rear areas 41-45)
---this is where I agree with Mdiehls WWII (gloating) Allied fanboi satisfaction abt Germany's defeat, as did my grandparents born 1903-05 already openly admitted to me 40 years ago, ' it was better we lost the war'.
the pendulum currently has swung too far, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:58 pm 
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dp


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:26 pm 
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NATO wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:


Paulus and the 6th Army were fucked even before they were encircled at Stalingrad.


-To have the Soviet Russian regime destroyed in 1941-1942 would have been good for all mankind to this day.
--to have Nazi Germany doing the destroying of Soviet Russia regime in 1941-1942 would never have been good for all mankind to this day. (we know the genocidal carnage in rear areas 41-45)
---this is where I agree with Mdiehls WWII (gloating)satisfaction abt Germany's defeat, as did my grandparents born 1903-05 already openly admitted to me 40 years ago, ' it was better we lost the war'.
the pendulum currently has swung too far, though.


While Russia still exists as a nation today, I suppose that there is some satisfaction in the knowledge that modern Russia is a shadow of what the Soviet Union was at its height in power.

The US thrives, while the Russia has shrunk from a population of 286,730,819 inhabitants (1989 cenus) to a current population of around 144,526,636----roughly half its prior peak total.
Russia's military power (still credible and still possessing nukes) pales in comparison to what it was during the Cold War.
Russia's influence is also much smaller than it was under its previous (SU) existence.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:33 am 
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- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

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