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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:12 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Watching a fight in the matrix!

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:mrgreen:


More like . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:00 am 
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Myths.... "Although it's based on history, most of it's embellished story."


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Dramatization from Unknown Soldier (2017), based on historic event during Continuation War.


Unfortunately the uploader went with Spanish subtitles.

The Suomi-submachine gun was ordered to be produced at maximum capacity and during Winter War the goal was to equip each rifle squad with one. By late Continuation War each rifle squad was to have two and the end of war stopped it from being raised to three per squad.

Having weapons like these allowed small forces to have substantially improved soft firepower over short ranges, ideal for both point defense against assaults against trenches as well as counter-attacking the enemy after he gained foothold within the front trench.

Small fire teams could also wreak havoc by committing 'fire strikes' on the enemy, Finnish term for hit and run attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Dramatization from Unknown Soldier (2017), based on historic event during Continuation War.


Unfortunately the uploader went with Spanish subtitles.

The Suomi-submachine gun was ordered to be produced at maximum capacity and during Winter War the goal was to equip each rifle squad with one. By late Continuation War each rifle squad was to have two and the end of war stopped it from being raised to three per squad.

Having weapons like these allowed small forces to have substantially improved soft firepower over short ranges, ideal for both point defense against assaults against trenches as well as counter-attacking the enemy after he gained foothold within the front trench.

Small fire teams could also wreak havoc by committing 'fire strikes' on the enemy, Finnish term for hit and run attacks.


Interesting. So, referring to this time period in particular, I always notice it is the squad leader of American units who has the Tommy Gun. I believe in the 1970s and 1980s it was also the squad leader who got the underslung grenade launcher?

Was it the same for Finnish squads? I wonder why? You would think that: the guy with the compact full-auto and/or the selective fire + grenade launcher would be the prime target for snipers or riflemen and why would you place the squad LEADER at increased risk that way?

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:39 pm 
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American squads dispensed with the "squad leader has tommy gun" about a week after the US hit the beach in Sicily. For the same reason that they removed emblems of rank from the fronts of their helmets. Most front line US commanders carried an M1 Garand unless they favored an M1 Carbine. By autumn 1944, US squads tended to have multiple SMGs for short periods when investing places like Aachen and Metz for obvious reasons. Indeed, US soldiers became VERY detail oriented as the European Campaign progressed, tailoring their daily personal load outs to meet the daily missions.

See Michael Doubler's "Closing with the Enemy."

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:42 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
American squads dispensed with the "squad leader has tommy gun" about a week after the US hit the beach in Sicily. For the same reason that they removed emblems of rank from the fronts of their helmets. Most front line US commanders carried an M1 Garand unless they favored an M1 Carbine. By autumn 1944, US squads tended to have multiple SMGs for short periods when investing places like Aachen and Metz for obvious reasons. Indeed, US soldiers became VERY detail oriented as the European Campaign progressed, tailoring their daily personal load outs to meet the daily missions.

See Michael Doubler's "Closing with the Enemy."


Cool!

Once again, Hollywood gets it wrong! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:35 am 
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[quote="Anthropoid"Interesting. So, referring to this time period in particular, I always notice it is the squad leader of American units who has the Tommy Gun. I believe in the 1970s and 1980s it was also the squad leader who got the underslung grenade launcher?

Was it the same for Finnish squads? I wonder why? You would think that: the guy with the compact full-auto and/or the selective fire + grenade launcher would be the prime target for snipers or riflemen and why would you place the squad LEADER at increased risk that way?[/quote]

"It proved remarkably effective once used as individual weapons issued to most capable soldiers. It gave these individual capable soldiers excellent short-range firepower in relatively compact form - light machineguns were notably large and heavy compared to it. Suomi submachine gun was unusually accurate weapon as a submachine gun and had longer range than most other submachine guns of its time. This was thanks to quite good ergonomics, rather long barrel (when compared to other submachine guns of that time), small recoil, powerfully loaded ammunition and quite a good sights."

"In Finnish forests effective shooting range of Suomi M/31 typically proved long enough and thanks to 70-round drums and fast rate-of-fire Suomi M/31 was able to spray more lead into air faster than grand majority of other automatic weapons of that time. Hence it is no suprise that Suomi M/31 become favoured weapon among Finnish troops as it proved to be ideal weapon for the best soldiers to make their most. Summer of 1940 armament of rifle squads belonging to Finnish infantry regiments got re-planned, now every rifle squad got both light machinegun (as squad support weapon) and submachine gun for short-range firepower."

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MACHINEPISTOLS1.htm

Every source I've read and the veterans say that it was not specifically for squad leader but the person who could use it best for maximum efficiency. Besides, squad leader is busy leading the squad and rarely has 'cool' weapons, he often has the standard rifle since actual squaddies are better able to fully focus on use of the marksman rifle, light machine gun, antitank weapons and so.

That doesn't mean that they never used them.

While it is important to mask the leaders from snipers by not making them stand out in any way, eg. "the guy who stands in front of others, shouts at them and waves his hands" it seems to often have been the case that Soviets shot pretty much at every Finnish target they could see. It might have to do with the force discrepancy; Finns lived in target rich environment and Soviets had the opposite with a considerable amount of Soviets dying before they saw their first enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:45 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
American squads dispensed with the "squad leader has tommy gun" about a week after the US hit the beach in Sicily. For the same reason that they removed emblems of rank from the fronts of their helmets. Most front line US commanders carried an M1 Garand unless they favored an M1 Carbine. By autumn 1944, US squads tended to have multiple SMGs for short periods when investing places like Aachen and Metz for obvious reasons. Indeed, US soldiers became VERY detail oriented as the European Campaign progressed, tailoring their daily personal load outs to meet the daily missions.

See Michael Doubler's "Closing with the Enemy."


I've never actually heard of Finns of the era tailoring their equipment per mission - not heard this specifically mentioned, that is.

But I do know that equipment of the force could change depending on what they were doing, for instance if a raiding patrol or a fire team was prepared to raid the enemy it was likely to be equipped with substantial numbers of the Suomi-SMG and other more effective weapons suited for maximizing a patrol's firepower.

Also, after initial supply problems Finns soon started to receive international arms deliveries. Especially Soviets delivered truckloads of equipment to Finns: tanks, artillery, machine guns, rifles, field kitchens, field prints, musical instruments and so on.

They even gave Finns some much needed aircraft such as Polikarpovs such as I-153, Tupolev SB-2 and Iljusin DB-3M bombers, Petljakov Pe-2 and Pe-3 bombers, they even gave Finns a Curtiss P-40M Warhawk to assist with the war effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:47 am 
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One of the games I have enjoyed, Jagged Alliance 2 with the "Version 2.13 mod" includes the Suomi M/31 and it had quite respectable stats in that game. Not as good as a MP-7 or a FN P90, but about the only smg from all those intervening years which could compete with the Suomi was (in that game), if memory serves, was the Vityaz SN. That game with that mod is serious gun porn. Its too bad the graphics are so hard on the eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:54 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
One of the games I have enjoyed, Jagged Alliance 2 with the "Version 2.13 mod" includes the Suomi M/31 and it had quite respectable stats in that game. Not as good as a MP-7 or a FN P90, but about the only smg from all those intervening years which could compete with the Suomi was (in that game), if memory serves, was the Vityaz SN. That game with that mod is serious gun porn. Its too bad the graphics are so hard on the eyes.


I accidentally bought the Wildfire mod version - I thought it was the original.

The modded version crashes essentially when you take over the airport - you can't get your orders through because the guy running the airport is bugged.

So much for ordering any supplies in.

In Finland the M/31 was in army warehouses "issuance" until 1990 or so. It was also delivered to Israel for their 1948 war.

One of the guys involved with the company designing it was a Soviet spy and was caught after he delivered the plans to Soviets.

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