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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:01 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:
Well.. Norway has been allied with the Anglos for quite awhile, and fought alongside.

Are you saying the Norwegians normally prefer doing business with them too?


Basic history of Norway:

- Early history.
- Never made it out of the Kalmar Union.
- Run by Denmark ("political union")
- Independence initiative following Danish defeat (Napoleonic Wars), 1813.
- Swedish invasion 1814 - forced into so called personal union with Sweden. Not happy!
- Finally independence 1905 (war with Sweden close, but avoided)
- Nazi German invasion 1940

In Sweden there is a saying when it comes to political security:

Norway will glance to the east (Sweden),
and state "No, we're not gonna' do it that way",
then look to the west (USA).



Makes sense.

I figured this was the case. Putting the timeline up makes it more apparent. Thanks for the insight!

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:57 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Makes sense.


mdiehl took a quick glance at a map and suggested a military alliance between Norway, Sweden and Finland was the way to go - but in the real world geography alone does not determine an issue like this.

Norway has drawn it's lessons from history and WWII. So has Finland. On one hand the Finnish experience is that a pragmatic attitude to the big neighbour in the east pays off, on the other they want to establish ties in Europe and the wider world as a counterweight to Russia but are vary of formal alliances. Sweden is an annoying loudmouth all pro gender equality, pro lgbt rights, anti-Putin nation that cause people a serious headache. If the Baltic states were to flare up, and there is a conflict with the west - it is probable Sweden will be drawn into it, but Finland might not be. So a formal alliance would endanger the Finnish freedom of action...


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:54 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:
Makes sense.


mdiehl took a quick glance at a map and suggested a military alliance between Norway, Sweden and Finland was the way to go - but in the real world geography alone does not determine an issue like this.

Norway has drawn it's lessons from history and WWII. So has Finland. On one hand the Finnish experience is that a pragmatic attitude to the big neighbour in the east pays off, on the other they want to establish ties in Europe and the wider world as a counterweight to Russia but are vary of formal alliances. Sweden is an annoying loudmouth all pro gender equality, pro lgbt rights, anti-Putin nation that cause people a serious headache. If the Baltic states were to flare up, and there is a conflict with the west - it is probable Sweden will be drawn into it, but Finland might not be. So a formal alliance would endanger the Finnish freedom of action...

One interesting thing is the planned railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn. There is certainly a huge economic impact, but there is a military aspect too. If properly constructed, by NATO standards, there is bigger than zero military dimension too. Is Finland sucked into NATO by a tunnel, and how would Russia react? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:24 pm 
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nero wrote:
One interesting thing is the planned railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn. There is certainly a huge economic impact, but there is a military aspect too. If properly constructed, by NATO standards, there is bigger than zero military dimension too. Is Finland sucked into NATO by a tunnel, and how would Russia react? :shock:

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An underwater tunnel?

That would be just another place for your Russkie buddies to lurk around with their submarines. The sneaky creepers.

:P

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:43 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
nero wrote:
One interesting thing is the planned railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn. There is certainly a huge economic impact, but there is a military aspect too. If properly constructed, by NATO standards, there is bigger than zero military dimension too. Is Finland sucked into NATO by a tunnel, and how would Russia react? :shock:

Comment.


An underwater tunnel?

That would be just another place for your Russkie buddies to lurk around with their submarines. The sneaky creepers.

:P

Of course the enemy would be interested, there was in the same place a submarine barrier during the WWII. Before that Finnish submarines had sink the Soviet submarines, in extreme conditions by ramming.

Of course the tunnel must be nuke proof, and otherwise safe against the enemy. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:07 pm 
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nero wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:

An underwater tunnel?

That would be just another place for your Russkie buddies to lurk around with their submarines. The sneaky creepers.

:P

Of course the enemy would be interested, there was in the same place a submarine barrier during the WWII. Before that Finnish submarines had sink the Soviet submarines, in extreme conditions by ramming.

Of course the tunnel must be nuke proof, and otherwise safe against the enemy. ;)


The Russians are pretty good hackers, aren't they?

Couldn't they potentially hack the controlling computers to open a vent, valve or something similar and flood the tunnel?

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:27 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
nero wrote:
...
Of course the enemy would be interested, there was in the same place a submarine barrier during the WWII. Before that Finnish submarines had sink the Soviet submarines, in extreme conditions by ramming.

Of course the tunnel must be nuke proof, and otherwise safe against the enemy. ;)


The Russians are pretty good hackers, aren't they?

Couldn't they potentially hack the controlling computers to open a vent, valve or something similar and flood the tunnel?

The trick is to make systems prone to hacking to hand operated.

The russians are not so hard working. Only gulag made them work: "Only with tufta and ammonal the Stalin Channes was made".

But you don't know nothing about that.

But we know. ;)

!000 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:40 am 
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Russian soldiers were really hard working - but at the same time at times incredibly inept.

One - they'd fortify their positions in breathtakingly short time to very high standards, Finns kept being amazed at their feats though I wonder if the sheer number of Russians played into that at all.
Second - they might forget to leave any guards and their machine gun positions could be unmanned too. Then there's the whole deal with Sausage Wars during Winter War.


The tunnel will obviously be dug into the Earth, through bedrock. It won't be just a bunch of concrete tubes laid to bottom of the sea!
And why on Earth would you dig a hatch through the sturdy rock to the ocean floor only to have a random chance that it kills everyone within the tunnel?

If dug well and properly reinforced it can be quite difficult to take out the tunnel - it will amount to a proper bunker complex really, kind of like the London Subway tunnels. It could even be a potential survivor vault during Nuclear Apocalypse given it's sheer dimensions and having only two narrow entrance points.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:43 am 
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The big reason why many Finns who like NATO and US don't actually want to join NATO is the fear of our own politicians.

We've all seen what happens when a European pussy-progressive country joins NATO, they immediately disband the whole military and start emasculating their male population "because we've now transcended war - those inferior warlike Americans got this covered so we can now seek to transcend our material bodies and become beings of pure vaginal energy". Swedes actually did this without even joining NATO as they regarded themselves already having reached 6th chakra of space dragons and being that much more advanced than the rest of mankind that still worry about things like aerial defenses, population shelters and vaccinations.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:59 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Russian soldiers were really hard working - but at the same time at times incredibly inept.

One - they'd fortify their positions in breathtakingly short time to very high standards, Finns kept being amazed at their feats though I wonder if the sheer number of Russians played into that at all. Second - they might forget to leave any guards and their machine gun positions could be unmanned too. Then there's the whole deal with Sausage Wars during Winter War.


It's nice to see that you don't share Sneero's bigotry about Russians. Sneero's remark about Russians being lazy was infantile and straight out of some cryptofascist's "dehumanizing others in service to ethnic supremacy" playbook.

And you're right, the Russians have been horridly led since about 1918. I do not know why that should be the case. Lack of experienced NCOs? Policies where officers refused to let NCOs be effective at the scale of platoon level tactics? If the Russians ever had a democratic revolution they'd be a formidable force in the world.

As for a pan nordic alliance. Yeah. The map makes sense. And the general sense of shared ethnicity would seem at face value to make sense. But I can't explain why nations choose to commit identity-suicide as Sweden has, apparently, chosen to do. The UK seems on the verge of it. The US left also embraces it, but a good chunk of America does not want to walk that road.

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