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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Image

Look at where Finland is.


A little known and often overlooked fact:

In early 1942 Finland runs out of food.

Large scale epidemics caused by malnutrition and starvation spread across troops.
As history went, Finland was allied with Nazis.
International trade had decreased to minimal levels, not least due to u-boat war in the Atlantic but also due to so many countries occupied with war time economies and fighting World War II, a total war.

Trade ships reaching Finland across all that Nazi water where the entire route to Finland is essentially going through a Nazi lake - minimal.

And this is while Finland in cooperation with Nazis set up a submarine net across the sea from Finland to Estonia blocking the Soviet fleet and submarines.


Why did Finns go with the Nazis?

1) Finland was surrounded by Nazis and Soviets. The Allies were not going to be able to supply Finland with any food even if an alliance with Allies was on the table.
2) Nazis promised to supply Finland with food and modern equipment while taking care of the northern half of the country, the least habited side - leaving entire Finnish army to focus on the southern half to defend the populated areas.
3) Finns did not know of Holocaust yet since it only started in 1941.
4) Soviets could not be trusted, they had committed genocide against Finnish communists that had fled there earlier - and these were die hard communists. Patriotic and 'troublesome' Finns would face genocide if they lost. (look at what happened to Tatars and Ukrainians, not to mention a few dozen ethnic groups they simply wiped out)
5) If Finnish territory would be violated by Soviets or Nazis or both Finland could not produce enough food, ammunition or other equipment. Finns would starve and be forced to surrender to Nazis and/or Soviets, whatever that would lead to - such as genocide and some of the population being mustered to their armies.
6) They didn't have the benefit of hindsight and didn't know all the things that are now known and taken for granted.

Finnish leadership with Mannerheim especially loathed Nazis, from early on Finns declared that they were fighting their own separate war with their own separate war goals. Finnish forces took some territory in the initial offensive in 1941 and then dug in for the entire reminder of war, not participating in Siege of Leningrad and not completing the siege from north, leaving a narrow corridor from which some supplies slipped into the city.


Finland also paid for it's devil's deal with Nazis. Stalin himself accepted a peace treaty with punishing conditions for Finland that would send many of Finland's leaders into prison while allowing a military base in shelling range of Helsinki, surveillance commission and massive war reparations (160M$ as industrial goods) and denial from inclusion in Marshall Aid, disbanding of patriotic organizations, lift of ban from communist party, communist control of State Police (NSA of sorts), treaty of cooperation with Soviet Union, expulsion of Nazis from Finland within a time limit while also demobilizing the military. Finland's second largest city, Finland's access to northern sea, Finland's nickel deposits. Did I miss something?

Oh yea, that entire half of the country occupied by Nazis? They destroyed literally everything that could be destroyed during their retreat, leaving mines and booby traps in their wake.

The Finnish territory tied up 200,000+ Nazis up until 1944 who couldn't achieve anything fighting within the arctic circle.
Finns sucked up as much equipment and food as they could from Nazis without doing jack shit about Leningrad, with whole Finnish army just standing there intact for almost 3 years while carving elaborate woodwork to beautify their bunkers with while Nazis and Soviets bashed heads and bled.

And when Finland sought for separate peace - according to preconceived plan before the war - in 1944 Hitler promised a huge shipment including assault guns, antitank weapons etc. for a promise to stand by their side "till bitter end". Finns graciously accepted the weapons, killed a bunch of Soviets and signed the separate peace anyway.

So, no clear conscience in that regard but at least Finland wasn't a happy team player like Sweden but much more of a 'high maintenance girl friend' that didn't even put out at the end of an expensive evening.

I know I always smile at the thought that my folks screwed the Nazis over while slaughtering a shit ton of Soviets.

Because, Stalin claimed that he invaded Finland to "secure Leningrad and to keep Finland from falling into Nazi hands". Well done Stalin, well done. Leningrad secured and definitely didn't push Finland into Nazi arms out of spite. Way to go - turning one of the least armed neutral countries in Europe into a military camp of the level that our arty boys still practice with WW2 leftover artillery shells.



Kameo, I really do sympathize with the position that Finland’s found itself, I really really do. They were between a rock and a hard place.

But (painfully obvious from looking at the map) there was another country that was even more isolated than Finland was.

I’ll give you a hint as to who they are:
They make handy little knives and tasty chocolate.

They managed to survive the war.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Hmmm. The lesson of that map is that the Finns, Swedes, and Norwegians should have a military alliance. IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:27 pm 
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mdiehl is correct.

What did Sweden do? "Oh, sorry, we're happy selling our entire production to Nazis, not that we'd have time helping neutral countries"

As for the Swiss, were their cities carpet bombed with incendiary cluster bombs without declaration of war? Didn't think so.
It's easy being neutral as long as you don't get invaded by some random Soviet Union or so. Unfortunately our country is not located on the Alps.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:50 pm 
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It irks me that, playing Germany in the 1936 campaign in Supreme Ruler Ultimate, Finland HATES me and is way too high of maintenance to be worth courting. You guys don't have any petroleum or rubber or anything worth trading!

Like I've said, Hitler was a dumbass. He should've given both you guys AND the Japs a kick to the curb: not worth the trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:10 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
It irks me that, playing Germany in the 1936 campaign in Supreme Ruler Ultimate, Finland HATES me and is way too high of maintenance to be worth courting. You guys don't have any petroleum or rubber or anything worth trading!

Like I've said, Hitler was a dumbass. He should've given both you guys AND the Japs a kick to the curb: not worth the trouble.


He did but then he changed his mind.

The alliance with USSR and Nazis?



Hitler had the press censor coverage of Winter War and halted all aid shipments sent to Finland, including the Fiat fighters sent by Italy - Hitler simply seized them all.

Then when Finland didn't fall he draw all the wrong conclusions; that USSR was a joke and that Finland was a worthwhile ally to have.
That played well for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:15 am 
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As for the alliance, Finland is always up for a military alliance but Sweden is always the first to give it green light only to do enormous amounts of oh-so-Swedish "oh, we said that right? You know, let me call you back about that next week so we can have a Good Talk about how you feel about what you think we were saying earlier so we can all work together, talk and share our feelings"

There will never be a military alliance because Sweden has already transcended beyond all notions of defending their own country or "national interest". They have decided to outdo every other progressive out there by striving for ultimate perfection in progressiveness.

Maybe in 15 years we can bring it back on table with their prime minister Muhammed Muhammed Muhammed.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:25 am 
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Sounds like France and Sweden have a lot in common.

France 1917: America, Help!
America 1917: Here we come.
Britain 1917: Errrrrr?
Germany 1917: Wtf!!? You get Americans?
Britain and France 1918: Fuck you America, OUR treaty of Versailles not yours.
France 1936-1939: America bites. Nothing happening in Europe. Nothing to see here. You Amis need to mind your own business.
France 1940: Wtf?!!!
Britain 1940: America, if you could just help out on background stuff....?
Germany 1940-43: Heh! Occupation. Need some fuel for our ovens.
Occupied Europe: WTF!!!
Occupied France: Well, that MIGHT be a bad thing. America needs to put a stop to that.
America 1944: Here we come.
Germany 1944: WTF!!!? Russians AND Americans?!!
France and Britain August 1944: We got Americans! And American tanks! And American planes. And American trucks and logistics!
France November 1944: America, you really need to put France in charge of this....
Eisenhower November 1944: Non.
Germany May 1945: This sucks! <rage quit>
France 1945-1960: We really should be in charge, not you yanks. But please keep U army here. Lots of Russians out east!
Russia 1962: We got ICBMs too.
France 1965: WTF! Fuck America. Fuck NATO. Not going to be caught up in an American War.
France 1994: Ooooo! No more USSR. Hey NATO, just kidding. Can we join the game too? Oh yeah, America SUCKS!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:08 pm 
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What about ze Kermans?

Germans: "We are Pure Race, we will unite all of Europe and then kill everyone and breed like rabbits to fill all your empty homes, muhahhahahha!"
*BAM*
E-Germans: "We are communists, all Europe will BOW TO THE COMMUNISM!"
W-Germans: "We did bad, so sorry, we don't know who we are..."
W-Germans: "Hey, guys, why don't we kick down the wall? Doesn't seem so nice over there"
Germany: "We transcend war! we will unite all of Europe and then stop whites from breeding and bring in tens of millions of Muslims to repopulate our empty cities! MUAHAHAHAHAHA"

Can't understand what the fuck is wrong with the germanic peoples. Always up to no good, always trying to get everyone onboard with their batshit crazy bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
What about ze Kermans?

Germans: "We are Pure Race, we will unite all of Europe and then kill everyone and breed like rabbits to fill all your empty homes, muhahhahahha!"
*BAM*
E-Germans: "We are communists, all Europe will BOW TO THE COMMUNISM!"
W-Germans: "We did bad, so sorry, we don't know who we are..."
W-Germans: "Hey, guys, why don't we kick down the wall? Doesn't seem so nice over there"
Germany: "We transcend war! we will unite all of Europe and then stop whites from breeding and bring in tens of millions of Muslims to repopulate our empty cities! MUAHAHAHAHAHA"

Can't understand what the fuck is wrong with the germanic peoples. Always up to no good, always trying to get everyone onboard with their batshit crazy bullshit.


Pretty much.

One could point to little Willie's withered arm and his warped "Mommy was British, but I'm not . . . " complex, but it actually seems to extend further back than him.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:01 am 
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This video is from a few years ago (2014), but it is of 4 naval vessels frying the Rising Sun ensign as they entered Pearl Harbor:


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