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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:37 am 
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nelmsm wrote:
Well I guess they could have just honored the peace treaty they had signed just a year earlier.


I get that you guys hate Nero because he pushes all your buttons but if anything - the Winter War teaches us that treaties can be broken - especially if it suits the Great Power(s). Stalin did not care about the Finnish-Soviet non-aggression deal from 1934 when he sent his troops into Finland.

The end of fighting in 1940 did not return Finland to a state of normal peace - it was a very frosty situation with a USSR pissed off about its failed conquest. Molotov bitched about machinery removed from the areas Finland had to cede to the USSR, shot down a Finnish plane carrying diplomatic mail, made demands about stopping the British Mond Nickel Company in the Petsamo region (<- - - eliminating other Great Power interests in the region)..., Finland wanted a sort of Nordic defence deal but the USSR flat out refused. Remains Germany, basically - unless you want to face the USSR alone.

(In this context one must also remember WWI, the Finnish Civil War and German support for the White side.)


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:09 am 
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wulfir wrote:
nelmsm wrote:
Well I guess they could have just honored the peace treaty they had signed just a year earlier.


I get that you guys hate Nero because he pushes all your buttons but if anything - the Winter War teaches us that treaties can be broken - especially if it suits the Great Power(s). Stalin did not care about the Finnish-Soviet non-aggression deal from 1934 when he sent his troops into Finland.

The end of fighting in 1940 did not return Finland to a state of normal peace - it was a very frosty situation with a USSR pissed off about its failed conquest. Molotov bitched about machinery removed from the areas Finland had to cede to the USSR, shot down a Finnish plane carrying diplomatic mail, made demands about stopping the British Mond Nickel Company in the Petsamo region (<- - - eliminating other Great Power interests in the region)..., Finland wanted a sort of Nordic defence deal but the USSR flat out refused. Remains Germany, basically - unless you want to face the USSR alone.

(In this context one must also remember WWI, the Finnish Civil War and German support for the White side.)


I tend to agree. As a people, the Finns seem pretty canny--at least historically. They made some wise strategic choices which allowed them to survive WWII (and the Cold War!) largely unscathed. In contrast, nations like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, to some extent Yugoslavia, who RELIED on the Western powers to help them maintain the independence (and this part is for the inevitable Midol peanuts from the gallery) WHICH THE VERY SAME WESTERN POWERS HAD GIVEN THEM AT VERSAILLES IN 1918 wound up, not only gobbled up, gang raped, beaten and left to starve or suck Nazi cock for nutrient, but ALSO wound up getting kidnapped into Stalin's death camp.

Wilson was a twit, Clemenceau was a twit, Lloyd-George was a twit, Orlando was just there for the booty Italy had been promised in order to change sides, and when it was all said and done, the Americans got pissed and said "Fuck you guys. I'm going home!" and settled their own separate peace with Germany, et al.

This was the precedent which had been established by the "victorious powers" (meaning, the little buddies of the Yanks who stood to benefit the most from the Yanks having taking the time to fucking step in and put a stop to the shit). That does not make the Yanks the heroes by any means. They too should have demanded certain conditions of a peace BEFORE they lent a hand, but they didn't. Wilson knew damn well that the punitive and arrogant terms Clemenceau wanted to impose and which Lloyd-George was only partially opposed to--his main interest was to see NEITHER France nor Germany gain supremacy post war--were bad Ju Ju. Germany might have been defeated in a Napoleonic sense, and the social unrest at home resulting largely from the British blockade certainly made any real threat from Germany in the short term distinctively unlikely. But the fact was: Germany was not TRULY DEFEATED. The country itself was still overwhelmingly intact, there were still just as many fertile Mommies to be as if the war had never happened, so the loss of male lives might well have acted as a fecundity multiplier!

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The Imperialist Germanic culture had not been crushed in such a way that all the fight was beaten out of it.

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Finland could see the French and Brits and Yanks too were not going to be much help to them and certainly not the Swedes or any other of the minor powers. There choices were to have two major powers gunning for them, or one. They choose the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Yes to that but it obviates any Finn's claim to criticise any war effort on behalf of third parties because Finland has not steeped up for anyone save themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:04 am 
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Agreed. The Finns made a pragmatic choice, and one of questionable moral/ethical virtue. I don't think they can necessarily be impugned for having teamed up with the Nazis against Uncle Joe, but then again, they aren't exactly on any moral high ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:25 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Yes to that but it obviates any Finn's claim to criticise any war effort on behalf of third parties because Finland has not steeped up for anyone save themselves.

The law of the jungle, everyone is his own. This happens when international treaties and guarantees break up.

I have not so much criticized the US for her isolationism, Finland did so as well.

And certainly as a Finn I can not occupy the moral high ground after allying with Hitler. But moral issues were not important in battle for survival. And when greater powers can make odd, immoral alliances, why not smaller can not do the same? :roll:

But there was one moment for Finland to occupy the moral high ground, the unprovoked defensive war of survival against a vastly superior enemy, the Winter War.



I think that no country can claim for moral high ground in the WWII. Each country for different reason and different degree.

We have discussed how Chamberlain sold Sudetenland to Hitler for free. But after German occupation of Bohemia started to give guarantees to Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia and Greece.

Same say it was stupid, Hitler's ambitions were just limited, Danzig and corridor to East Prussia. Some more appeasement and Hitler's ambitions would have been satisfied. Those some obviously had not read Mein Kampf.

The victors of the WWI could not stop Hitler, because they could not agree and co-operate.

The law of the jungle, everyone on his own.

Alliances only for survival or profit.

Where is the moral high ground? :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Quote:
Where is the moral high ground? :twisted:


Abiding by treaties.

Standing beside Allies with significant forces when the fight happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:12 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Quote:
Where is the moral high ground? :twisted:


Abiding by treaties.

Standing beside Allies with significant forces when the fight happens.


Winning UTTERLY and then NOT enslaving, exploiting or abusing the vanquished, but rather, helping them to regain their humanity, their dignity, their freedom and their prosperity.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:54 am 
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Not waging economic warfare against your benefactors.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Look at where Finland is.


A little known and often overlooked fact:

In early 1942 Finland runs out of food.

Large scale epidemics caused by malnutrition and starvation spread across troops.
As history went, Finland was allied with Nazis.
International trade had decreased to minimal levels, not least due to u-boat war in the Atlantic but also due to so many countries occupied with war time economies and fighting World War II, a total war.

Trade ships reaching Finland across all that Nazi water where the entire route to Finland is essentially going through a Nazi lake - minimal.

And this is while Finland in cooperation with Nazis set up a submarine net across the sea from Finland to Estonia blocking the Soviet fleet and submarines.


Why did Finns go with the Nazis?

1) Finland was surrounded by Nazis and Soviets. The Allies were not going to be able to supply Finland with any food even if an alliance with Allies was on the table.
2) Nazis promised to supply Finland with food and modern equipment while taking care of the northern half of the country, the least habited side - leaving entire Finnish army to focus on the southern half to defend the populated areas.
3) Finns did not know of Holocaust yet since it only started in 1941.
4) Soviets could not be trusted, they had committed genocide against Finnish communists that had fled there earlier - and these were die hard communists. Patriotic and 'troublesome' Finns would face genocide if they lost. (look at what happened to Tatars and Ukrainians, not to mention a few dozen ethnic groups they simply wiped out)
5) If Finnish territory would be violated by Soviets or Nazis or both Finland could not produce enough food, ammunition or other equipment. Finns would starve and be forced to surrender to Nazis and/or Soviets, whatever that would lead to - such as genocide and some of the population being mustered to their armies.
6) They didn't have the benefit of hindsight and didn't know all the things that are now known and taken for granted.

Finnish leadership with Mannerheim especially loathed Nazis, from early on Finns declared that they were fighting their own separate war with their own separate war goals. Finnish forces took some territory in the initial offensive in 1941 and then dug in for the entire reminder of war, not participating in Siege of Leningrad and not completing the siege from north, leaving a narrow corridor from which some supplies slipped into the city.


Finland also paid for it's devil's deal with Nazis. Stalin himself accepted a peace treaty with punishing conditions for Finland that would send many of Finland's leaders into prison while allowing a military base in shelling range of Helsinki, surveillance commission and massive war reparations (160M$ as industrial goods) and denial from inclusion in Marshall Aid, disbanding of patriotic organizations, lift of ban from communist party, communist control of State Police (NSA of sorts), treaty of cooperation with Soviet Union, expulsion of Nazis from Finland within a time limit while also demobilizing the military. Finland's second largest city, Finland's access to northern sea, Finland's nickel deposits. Did I miss something?

Oh yea, that entire half of the country occupied by Nazis? They destroyed literally everything that could be destroyed during their retreat, leaving mines and booby traps in their wake.

The Finnish territory tied up 200,000+ Nazis up until 1944 who couldn't achieve anything fighting within the arctic circle.
Finns sucked up as much equipment and food as they could from Nazis without doing jack shit about Leningrad, with whole Finnish army just standing there intact for almost 3 years while carving elaborate woodwork to beautify their bunkers with while Nazis and Soviets bashed heads and bled.

And when Finland sought for separate peace - according to preconceived plan before the war - in 1944 Hitler promised a huge shipment including assault guns, antitank weapons etc. for a promise to stand by their side "till bitter end". Finns graciously accepted the weapons, killed a bunch of Soviets and signed the separate peace anyway.

So, no clear conscience in that regard but at least Finland wasn't a happy team player like Sweden but much more of a 'high maintenance girl friend' that didn't even put out at the end of an expensive evening.

I know I always smile at the thought that my folks screwed the Nazis over while slaughtering a shit ton of Soviets.

Because, Stalin claimed that he invaded Finland to "secure Leningrad and to keep Finland from falling into Nazi hands". Well done Stalin, well done. Leningrad secured and definitely didn't push Finland into Nazi arms out of spite. Way to go - turning one of the least armed neutral countries in Europe into a military camp of the level that our arty boys still practice with WW2 leftover artillery shells.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Winning UTTERLY and then NOT enslaving, exploiting or abusing the vanquished, but rather, helping them to regain their humanity, their dignity, their freedom and their prosperity.


When US won Pacific War and Japan surrendered, where were Soviets?

Oh, yea, racing through defeated Japanese armies, conquering China and creating fun places like North Korea.

Way to go Team Allies, "hey, why is Stalin taking shots at our own goal?"

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