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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:56 pm 
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I would like to learn more, as much excruciating detail as there is available about the exact situation of all the players at the time of the Sudeten crisis (which began to brew up in earnest in spring 1938) and then the "Munich Diktat" in September 1938. Perhaps it IS unfair to expect a nation to defend itself and refuse to give in to coercion by a stronger neighbor. But based on my superficial understanding of things so far, there is plenty of blame to go around, and Banesh is not without blame.

Chamberlain and the French leader involved obviously are more to blame for betraying the Czechs and the Versailles Treaty: worse to have done so unilaterally without any consultation of the Czechs or the League of Nations (not that I consider such voluntary collective entities to have superior prescience or rationality over a nation-state, but they could have at least been consulted).

Seems to me Chamberlain, the French leader and Banesh all acted cowardly. This gave the Nazis more power, more prestige more time and freedom to prepare for their conquests, that is all patently true in hindsight. Obviously, the extent to which any of those involved could have predicted this was the path Hitler would follow is probabilistic, not certain. But Churchill and similar hard-liners certainly were not the least bit fooled. Had Churchill been the British PM in 1938, WWII might not have happened, or it might have happened under circumstances which were much more advantageous to the Western powers, i.e., leading to far fewer casualties and destruction.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.

That was the message I came away with after watching Anthropoid: these brave Czech soldiers and Czech resistance fighters, and plenty of innocent bystanders in Prague, they were the victims of the cowardice of men like Chamberlain and Banesh.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:18 pm 
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According to Robert Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich, the Czechs had some 800K first line soldiers in 1938 to the Germans' about the same. IIRC he wrote that the French and Czechs combined could field about 2.4:1 against the Germans in 1938, had they the nuggets to resist German ambitions.

At the time, the UK had about 200K front line troops distributed planetwide, so I give the Brits a pass. The first obligation of resisting Germany fell to Germany's neighbors. They had the men, economies, and interest. They just lacked the guts to do the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Spotted what might be a good one on Amazon prime video: War in the Pacific: Eagle Against the Sun.

Just having a look at episode one now.

I get the impression that the culmination of many years of recovery, restoration and/or coloration of world war II era films has occurred recently (well within the last 5 or 10 years) and that there are more documentaries making ample use of the old footage. Looks promising on first glance!

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:45 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
According to Robert Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich, the Czechs had some 800K first line soldiers in 1938 to the Germans' about the same. IIRC he wrote that the French and Czechs combined could field about 2.4:1 against the Germans in 1938, had they the nuggets to resist German ambitions.

At the time, the UK had about 200K front line troops distributed planetwide, so I give the Brits a pass. The first obligation of resisting Germany fell to Germany's neighbors. They had the men, economies, and interest. They just lacked the guts to do the job.

You a little, insignificunt man; hollow on facts, full shit. :twisted:

Munich Agreement:

“And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time.”
― Winston S. Churchill

“If you have sacrificed my nation to preserve the peace of the world, I will be the first to applaud you. But if not, gentlemen, God help your souls."
― Jan Masaryk

Luckily Finland had no allies to betray her during the Winter War.

PS. That 900000 Czech first line troop is just arm chair generals delusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:50 am 
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Hey, Sneero, you finnish pussy:

Here's the OOB of the Czech Army in late summer 1938:

Quote:
The general mobilization, ordered on September 23, 1938, would according to plan yield 1,280,000 men. The Army was divided into four armies with headquarters in Kutná Hora, Olomouc, Kremnica and Brno. They comprised:

• 34 infantry divisions
• 4 fast (rychlé) divisions

Of the 34 infantry divisions, 22 of them were regular infantry divisions. A regular infantry division had a headquarters, three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment and support units. Five infantry divisions were organize slightly differently, with one or two mountain infantry regiments instead of infantry regiments. 9 infantry divisions also had a tankette platoon. The infantry regiments were ? men strong, and their support weapons included machine guns, 12 37 mm anti-tank guns and 12 81 mm mortars.

One of the regular infantry divisions (14. divize “Fibich”) was motorized (lorry-borne), another was in the process of being motorized. The motorized infantry division had a headquarters, three motorized infantry regiments, one motorized artillery regiment, one mechanized cavalry regiment and support units.

The fast (rychlé) divisions, like the French divisions légères de cavalerie of that period, were composed basically of a motorized brigade and a cavalry brigade. While the cavalry brigade comprised two dragoon regiments, a bicycle battalion and a horse artillery battalion, the organisation of the motorised brigades varied from each of the four fast divisions.

Czechs had also four division-sized formations of low-quality infantry (skupiny) manning the extensive border fortifications. Along them were 138 battalions of uniformed men (border guards, customs officials, railway guards, etc.), also manning the border fortifications fortifications. These 138 battalions could be counted as the equivalent of 14-15 infantry divisions.

Czechoslovakia mounted large and efficient arms productions centred mainly in Plzeň and Brno, and the Czechoslovak Armed Forces was thus was equipped with mostly self-produced small arms, artillery, vehicles and aircraft (both equipment produced when the Czech lands were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and after their independence in 1918). The main arms manufacturers were the Škoda Works (Škodovy závody), ČKD (Českomoravská Kolben-Daněk), ČZ (Česká zbrojovka) and ZB (Zbrojovka Brno).

The equipment of the Czechoslovak army in September 1938 comprised:

• 1,280,000 soldiers
• 217,000 horses
• 26,000 motor vehicles

• 207,200 pistols
• 1,536,000 hand grenades
• 864,500 rifles
• 34,500 light machineguns
• 7,100 heavy machineguns (ČZ vz. 24)
• 1,600 heavy machineguns (ZB vz. 37)

• 600 anti-tank guns (37 mm and 47 mm guns)
• 230 anti-aircraft guns (20 mm VKPL vz. 36)
• 90 anti-aircraft guns (80 mm)
• 140 anti-aircraft guns (83,5 mm FlaK vz. 22)

• 900 mortars (80 mm)
• 200 mortars (90 mm)
• 240 mountain guns (75 mm)
• 270 light guns (80 mm)
• 600 light howitzers (100 mm)
• 100 heavy guns (105 mm)
• 340 heavy howitzer (150 mm)

• 15 heavy armoured cars (OA vz. 27)
• 51 light armoured cars (OA vz. 30)
• 70 Tč vz. 33 tankettes
• 50 LT vz. 34 light tanks
• 300 LT vz. 35 light tanks


Read more: http://blitzsrbija.proboards.com/thread ... z57wWPTBdG


So you can go eat a shit sandwich and crawl back into the stanky troll-hole in which you live and return to your habit of fellating your dog.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:47 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Hey, Sneero, you finnish pussy:

Here's the OOB of the Czech Army in late summer 1938:

Quote:
The general mobilization, ordered on September 23, 1938, would according to plan yield 1,280,000 men. The Army was divided into four armies with headquarters in Kutná Hora, Olomouc, Kremnica and Brno. They comprised:

• 34 infantry divisions
• 4 fast (rychlé) divisions

Of the 34 infantry divisions, 22 of them were regular infantry divisions. A regular infantry division had a headquarters, three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment and support units. Five infantry divisions were organize slightly differently, with one or two mountain infantry regiments instead of infantry regiments. 9 infantry divisions also had a tankette platoon. The infantry regiments were ? men strong, and their support weapons included machine guns, 12 37 mm anti-tank guns and 12 81 mm mortars.

One of the regular infantry divisions (14. divize “Fibich”) was motorized (lorry-borne), another was in the process of being motorized. The motorized infantry division had a headquarters, three motorized infantry regiments, one motorized artillery regiment, one mechanized cavalry regiment and support units.

The fast (rychlé) divisions, like the French divisions légères de cavalerie of that period, were composed basically of a motorized brigade and a cavalry brigade. While the cavalry brigade comprised two dragoon regiments, a bicycle battalion and a horse artillery battalion, the organisation of the motorised brigades varied from each of the four fast divisions.

Czechs had also four division-sized formations of low-quality infantry (skupiny) manning the extensive border fortifications. Along them were 138 battalions of uniformed men (border guards, customs officials, railway guards, etc.), also manning the border fortifications fortifications. These 138 battalions could be counted as the equivalent of 14-15 infantry divisions.

Czechoslovakia mounted large and efficient arms productions centred mainly in Plzeň and Brno, and the Czechoslovak Armed Forces was thus was equipped with mostly self-produced small arms, artillery, vehicles and aircraft (both equipment produced when the Czech lands were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and after their independence in 1918). The main arms manufacturers were the Škoda Works (Škodovy závody), ČKD (Českomoravská Kolben-Daněk), ČZ (Česká zbrojovka) and ZB (Zbrojovka Brno).

The equipment of the Czechoslovak army in September 1938 comprised:

• 1,280,000 soldiers
• 217,000 horses
• 26,000 motor vehicles

• 207,200 pistols
• 1,536,000 hand grenades
• 864,500 rifles
• 34,500 light machineguns
• 7,100 heavy machineguns (ČZ vz. 24)
• 1,600 heavy machineguns (ZB vz. 37)

• 600 anti-tank guns (37 mm and 47 mm guns)
• 230 anti-aircraft guns (20 mm VKPL vz. 36)
• 90 anti-aircraft guns (80 mm)
• 140 anti-aircraft guns (83,5 mm FlaK vz. 22)

• 900 mortars (80 mm)
• 200 mortars (90 mm)
• 240 mountain guns (75 mm)
• 270 light guns (80 mm)
• 600 light howitzers (100 mm)
• 100 heavy guns (105 mm)
• 340 heavy howitzer (150 mm)

• 15 heavy armoured cars (OA vz. 27)
• 51 light armoured cars (OA vz. 30)
• 70 Tč vz. 33 tankettes
• 50 LT vz. 34 light tanks
• 300 LT vz. 35 light tanks


Read more: http://blitzsrbija.proboards.com/thread ... z57wWPTBdG


So you can go eat a shit sandwich and crawl back into the stanky troll-hole in which you live and return to your habit of fellating your dog.

Hi Mildred, having your period any time soon? ;)

I am not certain if your source is too reliable: Image; a post in a Serbian gaming forum. But it is quite revealing factoid about you. :roll:

But let's use your data to find this 900K first line troops. Certainly not William Shirer. And I doubt that you have ever read Shirer's Magnum opus, giving a free pass to Britain for the Munich sold out.

If one subtracts the number of German 22% and 5% Hungarian troops from the total of 1280000 gives 934400 loyal Czech and Slovak troops; pretty close to this 900K.

But then you fail to understand the age distribution of the reserve based armies. Who are counted for first line troops? Under 30 years old perhaps, and what is the upper limit of service age? So age cohorts from 18 to 29 years can be assigned the first line troops, while the age cohorts 30 to 44 not. Assuming for simplicity and missing age distribution data an uniform distribution.we can count 44% of the whole strength suitable for the first line troops: 415.3K possible first line troops. Only half of that you attribute to Shirer. :roll:

Read the Shirer's book.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Read your post with the Czech OOB Midol. Interesting stuff. I wonder if one could find a similar list for say March 1936?

Reason I ask is: there is a good game I've been revisiting: Supreme Ruler Ultimate and it would be neat to compare what the game portrays with the historical records.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:09 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
At the time, the UK had about 200K front line troops distributed planetwide, so I give the Brits a pass. The first obligation of resisting Germany fell to Germany's neighbors. They had the men, economies, and interest. They just lacked the guts to do the job.


Poland fought.

Against Nazi Germany AND Hitler's buddy Stalin. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:16 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
mdiehl wrote:
At the time, the UK had about 200K front line troops distributed planetwide, so I give the Brits a pass. The first obligation of resisting Germany fell to Germany's neighbors. They had the men, economies, and interest. They just lacked the guts to do the job.


Poland fought.

Against Nazi Germany AND Hitler's buddy Stalin. :twisted:


Yes Poland fought. Alone.

Meanwhile, a year before when the Nazis got a free chunk of Czechoslovakia and set in motion the effective annexation of the place with (apparently) almost no fighting, as well as the puppeting of Slovakia, and intensification of allegiance with Italy and Hungary, everyone just sat there, including Poland. In fact, Poland took the opportunity of the Munich Agreement and Nazi occupation of the Sudetenland to carve off a piece of Czechoslovakia for themselves.

Fall 1938, the Nazis win again: Poland does nothing; Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland do nothing. Belgium, Holland, France, Switzerland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania all nothing. Most of these neighbors to the crimes against the Czechoslovaks in fall 1938 and the breach of the Versailles Treaty (honestly just the latest in a long string of breaches going back to probably as early as the late 1920s . . .) . . . most of them got their dose of the "Peace in Our Time" before too much longer. Sweden is notably absent from those who suffered. But then I guess the Nazis found that iron they bought off ya'll to be reasonably priced enough that it wasn't worth annexing you.

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