maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:37 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


It's the Gulag of Fun



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 700 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 ... 70  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:30 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 16154
Reputation points: 720
abradley wrote:
IIRC, read some place that Germany didn't go on a war footing until late in the game.


mdiehl wrote:
You read wrong. The Germans started mobilizing in 1936.

That said, "war footing" is sort of a slippery term. Hitler's promise to the Germans was that war would be a string of easy victories. And there were so very many industrialists and gauleiters with their hands in the cookie jar that each had to be paid off. Putting women to work was not in the German ethos. Rationalizing the industries in the way that Speer did in 1942 almost didn't succeed because of domestic resistance from the industrialists.

And if Germany goes whole on production the way the USA did from 1941 through 1943, that means many fewer German divisions in the field. Which kind of makes occupying Russia dambed near impossible.

Looking the production numbers shows that Andy is right. ;)

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:34 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20951
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 15927
Anthro you would probably get a kick out of The Onion headline about the German-Japanese pact.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:09 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 31678
Location: West coast of the east coast
Reputation points: 20000
mdiehl wrote:
You read wrong. The Germans started mobilizing in 1936.

That said, "war footing" is sort of a slippery term. Hitler's promise to the Germans was that war would be a string of easy victories. And there were so very many industrialists and gauleiters with their hands in the cookie jar that each had to be paid off. Putting women to work was not in the German ethos. Rationalizing the industries in the way that Speer did in 1942 almost didn't succeed because of domestic resistance from the industrialists.

And if Germany goes whole on production the way the USA did from 1941 through 1943, that means many fewer German divisions in the field. Which kind of makes occupying Russia dambed near impossible.



Yes, they started mobilizing long before the war started in 1939 against Poland.
What Germany had done before that (and what I believe their intentions were for the war after that) was to mobilize the standing Army, call up the reserves from their civilian jobs (many of which were in industry and armaments production), then demobilize the reserves once the operation had concluded. They mobilized the reserves before taking the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia, then demobilized the reserves when that was over. They mobilized reserves before Poland and then after the conquest of Poland concluded, they started sending the reserves back to their jobs. They did the same with operations against France.

So their industry was working in starts and fits with the reserve mobilization and demobilizations. This obviously changed with the ramp up to Operation Barbarossa and the realization that as 1941 was drawing to a close that there would not be a demobilization for industry to recover their workers, because The SU was not collapsing, as the enemy had in all the prior operations. When those reserves didn’t return to their industry jobs, they first had to bring in foreign labor from occupied countries (at first on a voluntary or semi-voluntary basis and then later they resorted to outright slave labor when that became necessary).

So your last paragraph touches upon what I am saying.
All their military operations were based on the rapid mobilization of the standing army & reserves, then returning reserves to their civilian jobs once that operation was finished. When that cycle didn’t pan out with Operation Barbarossa they had to find replacement labor for the army reserves that were not going to be released back to their civilian jobs. And as you alluded to with regards to female labor in industry, there were (at least initially) no “Heidi the Riveters”. ;-)

_________________
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

No representations made as to the accuracy of info in posted news articles or links


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:03 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 12119
Location: inside your worst nightmare
Reputation points: 16336
Why did the Nazi lose? Cause Hitler was stupid; like I said.

_________________
Anthro's NSFW Thread


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:45 am 
Offline
buck private
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 16335
Reputation points: 13228
Anthropoid wrote:
Why did the Nazi lose? Cause Hitler was stupid; like I said.
Great stuff, bravo.

_________________
“Political Language… is Designed to Make Lies Sound Truthful… and to Give an Appearance of Solidity to Pure Wind.” — George Orwell


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:49 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20951
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 15927
For what it is worth, Wulfir, there is a grand strategy WW2 ETO board game (accommodates 2-3 players) called Totaler Krieg that puts the German in the driver's seat, to a modest degree, about timing who they attack, when, and how much economic tinkering they do prior to ratcheting up the full on war production.

It also has an option to generate an alt-history for the 1920s-30s pre-war that, through a sequence of dice rolls, can have Russia with no Soviet revolution, or a much greater Soviet influence than there was in 1939, or a Wiermar Republic that survives the early Nazi Party and emerges as a much stronger nationalist Germany in 1938, with more client states, a resurgent Austro-Hungarian empire, etc.

Totaler Krieg stopped being produced about ten years ago, and a replacement title called Totaler Krieg: Axis Empires entered the picture, that includes expansions on those themes in addition to the "historical" WW2, but I have not played Axis Empires, so I can't comment on quality. Totaler Krieg is, however, probably the best grand strategic tabletop WW2 ETO consim ever written.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:30 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 12119
Location: inside your worst nightmare
Reputation points: 16336
abradley wrote:
Great stuff, bravo.


Course, none of us have a crystal ball. But one thing seems clear: Germany fought WWII with "one hand (perhaps 1.5 hands) tied behind their back" by Nazi stupidity. Even without those impediments, it doesn't mean they "would have" won, but certainly their chances would have been much better had Hitler not been such a git when it came to making stupid decisions.

I think this trend is even more prevalent than the speaker points out however, because, Hitler had been Nazi Number one for something like 15 years (perhaps more I forget exact details) and many of the people he assembled around him in top leadership capacities were chosen primarily for their Naziism. There was effectively a culture of stupidity in charge of a potent nation state; bit like the Obama years! :P

_________________
Anthro's NSFW Thread


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:30 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20951
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 15927
As did France and Russia

Russia: much of the German success in 1941 was Stalin's *desire* to believe that the 3rd Reich was not about to invade. His own intel community told him. The UK's intel community told him. Polish sympathizers to the USSR told him. He ignored it. Russia had FANTASTIC training tactics and officers in 1914. The quality of the Russian armed forces massively declined with the purges of 1937-39.

France: briefly mobilized after declaring war then, like German, sent most of the army home, didn't listen to French, British and expat Polish sources of German armor infantry tactics used in the invasion of Poland. Ignored intel on German movements near the Ardennes. Failed to prepare defenses in depth along probably lines of German attack.

In many ways, much of the Germans' early war success is largely attributable to the French and Russians fighting with one hand behind their backs. They, like the 3rd Reich, had deeply ingrained institutional flaws that the French never had time to overcome, and that the Germans and Russians only overcame at great expense in blood and treasure.

Imagining a 3rd Reich that lacks those institutional flaws is to imagine something that is quintessentially NOT the 3rd Reich. Ditto the USSR in 1941, and France in 1939-40.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:54 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm
Posts: 16154
Reputation points: 720
mdiehl wrote:
...
Russia had FANTASTIC training tactics and officers in 1914.
...


August 1914, Tannenberg. How FANTASTIC was that? :roll:

And wouldn't praise Samsonov or Rennenkampf either.

_________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:01 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20951
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 15927
The Russians did a spectacular job emasculating the Austrian army in 1914, an Ottoman army at the same time, and won several major battles against the German army at the same time. Not at Tannenberg though. Cherry picking the data has as usual caused you to display your ignorance.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 700 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 ... 70  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group