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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:41 pm 
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What about Combat stress, did ancients suffer from it?



Interesting bit about Brit 50th Div during WW2.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:50 am 
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Interesting, but:
Quote:
Did Hannibal Really Exist?
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additi ... mes-Hannam
To ask whether or not the great Carthaginian general Hannibal ever actually existed might seem rather pointless. It might be an exercise for a student learning about the nature of historical evidence, but not something any serious scholar would waste time on. But maybe we should not be too hasty in acquiescing with the opinion of establishment historians (in other words, there's a plot by academics stifling debate).

In fact, although there is plenty of writing about Hannibal, none of it is contemporary and there is no archaeological evidence for him at all (not surprising given the Romans razed the city from whence he came). Furthermore he is not mentioned in any Carthaginian sources, which is incredible, given he was supposed to be their greatest leader (there are no Carthaginian sources as the Romans burnt their city down)! We find when we actually try to pin him down he tends to recede further into the mists of time. His exploits, such as leading elephants over the Alps, are clearly legendary (the skeptic pretends to be incredulous but seems happy to buy his own amazing theory) and it is not hard to find a motive for the creation of this colorful character by Roman writers (as long we can invent a motive for fabrication we can assume that fabrication exists).

Rome and Carthage were great trading rivals in the Western Mediterranean and it did not take them long to come to blows. Rome signed a peace treaty but, under the leadership of the elder Cato, desperately wanted to rid itself permanently of the competition (this is actually true and so helps to conceal the moment when we slip into fantasy). The Romans needed an excuse and the idea they developed was brilliant. Like many ancient civilizations, the Romans rewrote history as it suited them to exhibit their own prowess (a useful and exaggerated generalization). Consequently we should not be surprised to find that they invented a great enemy from Carthage to demonstrate the threat still existed and justify a further war to wipe them out.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:59 pm 
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jwilkerson wrote:
It was the results of those investigations that overturned his conclusions ... or "made them controversial" ... to put it nicely.


So, revisionism in history is not necessarily a bad thing, right? 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:07 pm 
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pamak wrote:
jwilkerson wrote:
It was the results of those investigations that overturned his conclusions ... or "made them controversial" ... to put it nicely.


So, revisionism in history is not necessarily a bad thing, right? 8-)
Depends on the reason for the revisions.

Correcting errors or propaganda?

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:25 pm 
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At viewtopic.php?p=269890#p269890 there's mention of the AMX 13, so, what's a AMX 13, everybody knows ... except me.



And


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:34 pm 
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I am not sure about the conclusion regarding combat stress in ancient times. I believe that the killing and the threat at that time was much more personal and therefore more traumatic. When you see death staring at you and when you smell his blood and sweat, and when you are forced to mutilate a human being right in front of you, it is much more difficult in my opinion

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:18 am 
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pamak wrote:
I am not sure about the conclusion regarding combat stress in ancient times. I believe that the killing and the threat at that time was much more personal and therefore more traumatic. When you see death staring at you and when you smell his blood and sweat, and when you are forced to mutilate a human being right in front of you, it is much more difficult in my opinion
Sounds like your describing a modern western man, what about a man whose entertainment was watching the slaughter in an arena, or feeding people to wild animals?

How about crucifixion (not talking religion, just the barbarous act)



Tried to find a straight scientific exploitation.

Then there's



We Westerners are sissies.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Quote:
Sounds like your describing a modern western man, what about a man whose entertainment was watching the slaughter in an arena, or feeding people to wild animals?

How about crucifixion (not talking religion, just the barbarous act)


I do not think that morality issues are the driving factor for combat fatigue or shell-shock. As the video already showed, combat fatigue is the result of soldiers not getting enough rest while they are under stress during long periods of time. It is quite known that the first kills are the difficult one. Even modern soldiers with modern morality become accustomed to killing. But still, the cases of combat fatigue appear when the soldiers have passed the first difficult period of the first killings. Besides, there is a reason why combat fatigue was called in wwi "shell-shock" and why doctors believed that the concussions from the explosions was the cause of it. It is obvious that since the beginning, the issue of combat fatigue was linked to the threat of losing your life. There were no cases of "first killing" combat fatigue.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:22 pm 
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Quote:
... So, revisionism in history is not necessarily a bad thing, right?


Historians:

01 - Ask the questions
02 - Find the sources
03 - Answer the questions (while being true to the sources)

Making s%^& up is not history ...
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:14 pm 
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pamak wrote:
I am not sure about the conclusion regarding combat stress in ancient times. I believe that the killing and the threat at that time was much more personal and therefore more traumatic. When you see death staring at you and when you smell his blood and sweat, and when you are forced to mutilate a human being right in front of you, it is much more difficult in my opinion



Do you think the Vikings who slaughtered the defenseless monks at Lindisfarne were traumatized by the smell of blood and sweat?

Have you ever practiced any martial arts?

Blood and sweat are the basic scents of a training hall whereas farts and grease are the smells of couch potato.

Most of the training in any practical martial arts aims at improving your fighting spirit.

Lesson one: eye contact.

Most modern men and women feel threatened and can be traumatized by a mere stern stare. I remember there was a psychological experiment where the experimenter stared at people in the eyes sternly without saying anything to them. He didn't get far until one of the subjects ran away and was shocked and almost traumatized after it and required some counseling.

Lesson two: the goal is to hurt your opponent.

The homo domesticus is unable to defend one's wife.
See a married couple in the park, a mugger jumps from the bush and pushes the man aside and starts attacking his wife. The man stands there in confusion and is stressed out or if he's resourceful he'll call the police.

Parents chew the bread for their children and make sure they don't choke on it.

"If you can't chew your bread I guess you're not hungry enough"

"Son, here's a knife. If you don't want the wolves to eat you you'll use it on them, though if you don't value your life you can just let them eat you like a little sissy"

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