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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:46 am 
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I agree with your point: that state support is often necessary to get things moving. But States are notoriously bad at many things, notwithstanding some exceptional places like Finland. Statism seems to serve you Finns rather well; you folks generally seem to be quite keen on it and happy with it, so far be it from me to argue that Finland should be a less statist nation.

But assuming that the order of Finland, or any of the small and frankly rather inconsequential nations in which Statism does seem to have served well, is the final word on the merits of Statism is no less arrogant than to assume that total Laissez Faire (or "small government," or whatever the opposite actually amounts to) is the silver bullet of national or international order.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:12 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I agree with your point: that state support is often necessary to get things moving. But States are notoriously bad at many things, notwithstanding some exceptional places like Finland. Statism seems to serve you Finns rather well; you folks generally seem to be quite keen on it and happy with it, so far be it from me to argue that Finland should be a less statist nation.
...

There are historical reasons for Finland to have state owned industries. Before the WWII there was no active policies to have state owned businesses, more like crisis management to take over companies in crisis.

After the WWII the situation was different. Paying the war reparations to SU needed to start new industries. And capital was scarce, domestic practically non-existent, private foreign also nil. So Finnish government started Valmet (state metal industries) building ships, guns, tractors and what ever one can make out of metal. Neste was started for oil distilleries.

And privatizing, partial or whole have been disastrous, crown jewels sold by pennies to local or foreign investors. The list is too long to present here. My blood pressure hikes 30+ points even thing about the fuckups. :twisted:

Anthropoid wrote:
...
But assuming that the order of Finland, or any of the small and frankly rather inconsequential nations in which Statism does seem to have served well, is the final word on the merits of Statism is no less arrogant than to assume that total Laissez Faire (or "small government," or whatever the opposite actually amounts to) is the silver bullet of national or international order.

May be so, but just recently I read an article by quite famous rising star in the field of economics, Brad DeLong. Not a republican despite of his name starting with De. DeLay, DeMint, ... :roll:

DRAFT For “Rethinking Macroeconomics” Conference Fiscal Policy Panel

Brad DeLong wrote:
Conclusion

I conclude that, looking forward:

    * North Atlantic public sectors should be larger than they have been in the past century.
    * North Atlantic public debt levels should be higher than they have been in the past century.
    * With prudent regulation—i.e., the effective limitation of the banking sector’s ability to write unhedged puts on the currency—the power to tax the financial sector via financial repression provides sufficient insurance against an adverse preference shock to the desire for government debt.
    Thus, if the argument against a larger public sector and more public debt is going to be made, it seems to me that it needs to be made on a political-economy government-failure basis. The argument needs to be not that larger government spending and a higher government debt issued by a functional government would diminish utility, but rather that government will be highly dysfunctional.


So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:45 pm 
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nero wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:
...

Selective vision and interpretation. :roll:

How can someone consider the sentence, "The hatred of big gov't has reached a level in the US that threatens it's own existence" as anything BUT extolling the virtues of Big Brother Gov't?


Nero has the blinders set to "Full".

The quote tells that one party has got crazy and threatens to shut down government for this or that reason. :roll:


"shut down government"?

Bullshit.

It specifically says, "hatred of big government". Not "anarchists", you revisionist stooge.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:59 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
...

"shut down government"?

Bullshit.

It specifically says, "hatred of big government". Not "anarchists", you revisionist stooge.

Crazy t-baggers did shut down government 2013, remember?

Or is your memory-span too short to recall that glorious October 2013, a major victory for the t-baggers? :roll:

Next opportunity next October. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:05 am 
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I do not understand why you call it crazy or object? It's a completely legitimate tactic in governance to be a huge pain in the rear end for the ruling coalition, and this is true world-wide. Your close personal friends in Ukraine ascended to power by coups d'état. And wasn't there some Russian ruling governor of Finland who was assassinated? And you complain about "t-baggers?"


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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:01 pm 
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nero wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:
...

"shut down government"?

Bullshit.

It specifically says, "hatred of big government". Not "anarchists", you revisionist stooge.

Crazy t-baggers did shut down government 2013, remember?

Or is your memory-span too short to recall that glorious October 2013, a major victory for the t-baggers? :roll:

Next opportunity next October. :(


"Government shutdown" is a ridiculous misnomer. Government was still running.

The gov't didn't cease to exist. Unnecessary parts were briefly de-funded and put on hold. Which says much about the inefficiency of such a bureaucracy when they can turn off parts with little difference. The gov't was still very much up & running.

It wasn't a bad thing, either, since funding shouldn't be a bottomless "blank check" written by the same circles spending it. An occasional reality check is a good way to keep it under control. Nobody tore down the gov't buildings and turned the place into anarchy, as the "government shutdown" nonsense would imply (and you seem to believe).

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:06 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
I do not understand why you call it crazy or object? It's a completely legitimate tactic in governance to be a huge pain in the rear end for the ruling coalition, and this is true world-wide. Your close personal friends in Ukraine ascended to power by coups d'état. And wasn't there some Russian ruling governor of Finland who was assassinated? And you complain about "t-baggers?"

Well, the American system is quite irrational to my taste. It is impossible to make any kind of reforms without a bitter fight. And the election system is such that majority of votes give minority of representation more often than not (gerrymandering and voter suppression). So now there is a situation where House and Senate can create all kind of bills, that get vetoed by the president. The only thing that the President needs from the Congress is the Debt Ceiling. OK, declaration of war would be the other. But quite unlikely now. So you will have quite an interesting show in a half year.

Then you are wrong about Finland, that was fighting for independence from Russian Empire, the "Prison of the Peoples". In the fight for freedom all kind of violence happens.

Jean Sibelius' Finlandia is all about to describe people under russification yoke and after hard struggle the national uprising.



So it goes.

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Last edited by nero on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:16 pm 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
...

"Government shutdown" is a ridiculous misnomer. Government was still running.

The gov't didn't cease to exist. Unnecessary parts were briefly de-funded and put on hold. Which says much about the inefficiency of such a bureaucracy when they can turn off parts with little difference. The gov't was still very much up & running.

It wasn't a bad thing, either, since funding shouldn't be a bottomless "blank check" written by the same circles spending it. An occasional reality check is a good way to keep it under control. Nobody tore down the gov't buildings and turned the place into anarchy, as the "government shutdown" nonsense would imply (and you seem to believe).

National bankruptcy then. A government that can not pay its debts, it is bankrupt. The government that can not pay salaries for it's workforce can provide services that it should, service shutdown.

Next time the t-baggers try, the first target for cutting expenses during shutdown should be salaries of the congressmen. But the Koch brothers are likely to compensate the losses for the "Real Americans". But the ordinary people will suffer. But then, they are not "Real Americans", the ordinary people.

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:34 pm 
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Quote:
Well, the American system is quite irrational to my taste. It is impossible to make any kind of reforms without a bitter fight.


I agree that LATELY things have been very divisive. That's not a consequence of the system so much as the times. Huge numbers of Americans have suffered because of globalism, but they're also very committed to ideologies that often blind them to the price they personally pay to support globalism. So they lash out at pretty much everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson comes out from the closet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:46 pm 
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nero wrote:
NefariousKoel wrote:
...

"Government shutdown" is a ridiculous misnomer. Government was still running.

The gov't didn't cease to exist. Unnecessary parts were briefly de-funded and put on hold. Which says much about the inefficiency of such a bureaucracy when they can turn off parts with little difference. The gov't was still very much up & running.

It wasn't a bad thing, either, since funding shouldn't be a bottomless "blank check" written by the same circles spending it. An occasional reality check is a good way to keep it under control. Nobody tore down the gov't buildings and turned the place into anarchy, as the "government shutdown" nonsense would imply (and you seem to believe).

National bankruptcy then. A government that can not pay its debts, it is bankrupt. The government that can not pay salaries for it's workforce can provide services that it should, service shutdown.

Next time the t-baggers try, the first target for cutting expenses during shutdown should be salaries of the congressmen. But the Koch brothers are likely to compensate the losses for the "Real Americans". But the ordinary people will suffer. But then, they are not "Real Americans", the ordinary people.

So it goes.


What do you mean "ordinary" people? Everyone on this board is an "ordinary" person.

I'm not sure what kind of propaganda has convinced you that us ordinary people are being downtrodden by "T-Bagger" congressmen, but you sound like you've drank whatever Kool-Aid they were passing ya.

For some reason you think a political group that promotes fiscal responsibility as some kind of National Socialism enslaving the 99%. That comes across as you being excessively brainwashed or batshit crazy. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we have plenty crooked run-of-the-mill congressmen and a white house which has had regular secret backroom deals, more than a couple notable scandals, has persecuted or intimidated various groups via gov't agencies (including the media), and less transparency than we've ever seen (despite the promise). And you believe the people who want less deficit spending are the terrorists? Ha!

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