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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:04 am 
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The Vietcong were sadistic monsters. Walter Cronkite never mentioned it.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:10 am 
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doggie wrote:
The Vietcong were sadistic monsters. Walter Cronkite never mentioned it.


You are absolutely correct. The problem was, "we" were not.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:26 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
The tragedy of Viet Nam is that the USA did not back Ho starting in 1945, rather than trying to aid France in the maintenance of its vicious empire.
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:30 am 
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Whether the French Empire was vicious or not is irrelevant, but it was an anti-Euro smack that Diehl simply couldn't help himself to toss in there.

No matter who he really was, Ho Chi Minh was adored by far more Vietnamese than those who hated him. Just as we did in other places, we should have bet on the winning horse and coopted our rivals the commies in supporting him.

When you face a choice between supporting one devil or another, better to choose the winning devil if not the lesser devil.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:40 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
doggie wrote:
The Vietcong were sadistic monsters. Walter Cronkite never mentioned it.


You are absolutely correct. The problem was, "we" were not.
No, we could have won without resorting to atrocities.

As for VC being sadistic, yes, that's the problem with true believers ... anything is allowed for the movement.

The True Believer


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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:46 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Whether the French Empire was vicious or not is irrelevant, but it was an anti-Euro smack that Diehl simply couldn't help himself to toss in there.

No matter who he really was, Ho Chi Minh was adored by far more Vietnamese than those who hated him. Just as we did in other places, we should have bet on the winning horse and coopted our rivals the commies in supporting him.

When you face a choice between supporting one devil or another, better to choose the winning devil if not the lesser devil.
When Vietnam was divided masses moved south, a trickle moved north,

Everybody loved Ho, did they have a choice in their 1984 society.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:50 am 
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Good post Abradley (the video about the Hoffer book, will have to try and check that out someday).

abradley wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
Whether the French Empire was vicious or not is irrelevant, but it was an anti-Euro smack that Diehl simply couldn't help himself to toss in there.

No matter who he really was, Ho Chi Minh was adored by far more Vietnamese than those who hated him. Just as we did in other places, we should have bet on the winning horse and coopted our rivals the commies in supporting him.

When you face a choice between supporting one devil or another, better to choose the winning devil if not the lesser devil.
When Vietnam was divided masses moved south, a trickle moved north,

Everybody loved Ho, did they have a choice in their 1984 society.


I never got the impression of either NVA or NLF foot soldiers as being ambivalent. Rather, they seem to have been quite willing to make any sacrifice, and the NLF never seems to have suffered much from an inability to recruit from among Southerners.

Maybe that was as much out of terror as anything else, but the distinction is I think moot. The U.S. never much succeeded in winning hearts and minds. Ho apparently did.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:15 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I never got the impression of either NVA or NLF foot soldiers as being ambivalent. Rather, they seem to have been quite willing to make any sacrifice, and the NLF never seems to have suffered much from an inability to recruit from among Southerners.

Maybe that was as much out of terror as anything else, but the distinction is I think moot. The U.S. never much succeeded in winning hearts and minds. Ho apparently did.
All their info was state controlled, like in 1984.

Like the Muslims, do they know any other dogma other than Muhammad was perfect, that's why we need to do this.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:57 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
The tragedy of Viet Nam is that the USA did not back Ho starting in 1945, rather than trying to aid France in the maintenance of its vicious empire.

Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:08 pm 
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abradley wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
I never got the impression of either NVA or NLF foot soldiers as being ambivalent. Rather, they seem to have been quite willing to make any sacrifice, and the NLF never seems to have suffered much from an inability to recruit from among Southerners.

Maybe that was as much out of terror as anything else, but the distinction is I think moot. The U.S. never much succeeded in winning hearts and minds. Ho apparently did.
All their info was state controlled, like in 1984.

Like the Muslims, do they know any other dogma other than Muhammad was perfect, that's why we need to do this.


No argument from me. North Viet or Islamofascists, doesn't really matter: police states.

Point being, "we" are not in police states.

Police states have an edge when competing by violence and in particular in "low intensity" violence where there is a lack of an incontrovertible existential threat in the average Western mind.

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