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 Post subject: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:09 pm 
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Tonight I sat out this lecture about Islamophobia. Seems like there is a bunch of anti-Islamic sentiment in the north of Sweden despite the fact that there has been no sizable numbers of muslims in the area.

Anyways, the woman holding the lecture pointed out that there were 800 million muslims in democratic countries - I'd like to look closer at that number, and what various country populations they include..., it seems they include muslim minorities in western countries - but how does that score a point for Islam? The muslim arab heartlands are basically sh1tholes when it comes to government, tolerance and freedoms...

Another point was that the Swedish anti-immigration party Sverigedemokraterna stood for a policy with limited tolerance to certian groups - you should not stick out, not be a foreigner, not be a woman, not be a homosexual - but where is this not also true for all muslim dominated areas?

Muslim women did not have it so bad because there had been women leaders of three muslim countries - Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia - but what does that really say about the situation for the other millions of women (besides these three, one of which got blown up IIRC)?

And everything seems to rest upon the basic assumption that the islamic religion is actually pretty decent...


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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:21 pm 
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I get my hair cut by a Muslim lady, Gula who is from Kazakhstan. Nothing at all wrong with your 'typical' individuals Muslim, especially in the U.S.

But there are clearly fucking crazies a plenty in that 1.7 billion people and the religion itself is easily 'twisted' and used to promote nuttiness. Even in the absence of the nuttiness it strikes me as a fairly backward and creepy religion, about where Catholicism was 100 years ago or so, at best. As far as the worst elements . . . clearly they are about 1000 years behind modern notions of justice, liberty, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:51 pm 
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That 800 million number might be accurate.

Indonesia has 250 million people (87% Muslim, so about 218 million).
India has 1.2 billion people (13%+ Muslim, so 156 million).
Both democratic.
That's 374 million just for two countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Is this a strong enough argument?

Australian PM: Public execution terror plot foiled
By Ashley Fantz and Chelsea J. Carter, CNN
September 18, 2014 -- Updated 2301 GMT (0701 HKT)

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/17/world ... r-arrests/

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:50 pm 
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You might ask her what happened to Benazir Bhutto, who WAS the elected leader of Pakistan

You might ask her what happened to Malala Yousafzai

You might ask about all the girls schools bombed by the Taliban

You might ask why women can't even drive in Saudi

And....if that isn't enough ask her if she had her mandatory clitorectomy

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:55 pm 
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It seems to me Northern Swedes are actually smarter than their brethren in the South.


Reservations about importing large numbers of muslims is NOT "islamophobia"

It's NOT racism

It's NOT religious discrimination

It's an entirely rational decision based on thousands of data points.

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:27 am 
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wulfir wrote:
Tonight I sat out this lecture about Islamophobia. Seems like there is a bunch of anti-Islamic sentiment in the north of Sweden despite the fact that there has been no sizable numbers of muslims in the area.


They probably see Malmo and don't want Lulea becoming another Malmo. Their reputation precedes them.

Mass immigration is asking for it. The town I live in has 100,000 people. If you dumped another 100,000 Somalis on the place, then obviously the place is going to end up as Somalia, ie a shit hole. If you dumped 1000 Somalis on it, then fine, that's doable.


Not really sure it's a Muslim thing per se, it's simply a cultural thing. Not many westerners would be happy about their town assuming the culture of the Third World. And mass immigration like this has been a super recent thing, we're talking the last 10-15 years.

Other thing is that the politics of multiculturalism encourages them to live in ghettos of their own culture, whereas US immigrants were encouraged to take part in the American story. That said even without multiculturalism I can't see how truly mass immigration can be absorbed without radically changing the culture of the host country. And as I'd rather live in Sweden than anywhere in the Third World, implicitly changing the culture for the worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:47 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
wulfir wrote:
Tonight I sat out this lecture about Islamophobia. Seems like there is a bunch of anti-Islamic sentiment in the north of Sweden despite the fact that there has been no sizable numbers of muslims in the area.


They probably see Malmo and don't want Lulea becoming another Malmo. Their reputation precedes them.

Mass immigration is asking for it. The town I live in has 100,000 people. If you dumped another 100,000 Somalis on the place, then obviously the place is going to end up as Somalia, ie a shit hole. If you dumped 1000 Somalis on it, then fine, that's doable.


Not really sure it's a Muslim thing per se, it's simply a cultural thing. Not many westerners would be happy about their town assuming the culture of the Third World. And mass immigration like this has been a super recent thing, we're talking the last 10-15 years.

Other thing is that the politics of multiculturalism encourages them to live in ghettos of their own culture, whereas US immigrants were encouraged to take part in the American story. That said even without multiculturalism I can't see how truly mass immigration can be absorbed without radically changing the culture of the host country. And as I'd rather live in Sweden than anywhere in the Third World, implicitly changing the culture for the worse.


Quote:
They probably see Malmo and don't want Lulea becoming another Malmo. Their reputation precedes them.


Very valid point.
If you see something bad happening in other places, do you ignore it until after the same thing happens in your neighborhood?

Quote:
US immigrants were encouraged to take part in the American story. That said even without multiculturalism I can't see how truly mass immigration can be absorbed without radically changing the culture of the host country.


The US has been pretty successful at absorbing immigrants in the past, while at the same time incorporating positive aspect of the various immigration groups to improve the society overall (while still maintaining the cultural/societal traditions that have made the US what it is). IMHO, the this will become increasingly difficult due to reasons such as:
A) the sheer number of immigrants arriving makes it more difficult to absorb them
B) Multiculturalism (at least in the US) has essentially made its priority the shaming of US culture/traditions/history. They promote the aspects of the immigrants coming in AND at the same attempt to rip down the things that have helped make American successful in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:43 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
IMHO, the this will become increasingly difficult due to reasons such as:
A) the sheer number of immigrants arriving makes it more difficult to absorb them
B) Multiculturalism (at least in the US) has essentially made its priority the shaming of US culture/traditions/history. They promote the aspects of the immigrants coming in AND at the same attempt to rip down the things that have helped make American successful in the past.


Yup, exactly so. Regarding b) the other factor is that we're not talking about immigrants with similar values and backgrounds. We're talking about an absolutely alien culture. Pakistanis and Swedes, couldn't really be more apart if you tried.

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 Post subject: Re: Islamophobia lecture weak arguments
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:19 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
You might ask her...


I did wonder what she would say if I were to embrace Islam and the muslim values as it must be totally opposed to all thought of gender equality. Would it then basically be OK for me to treat women like dirt all of a sudden...


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