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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:58 am 
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Gary Childress wrote:
So in other words Boeing wanted to avoid union hassles in their expansion so they were going to expand into a state with less union activity. Gee I wonder where that's going to eventually end up? I don't know why the union would see that as a threat, do you?

As far as the practicality of seizing the factories, you are probably right. There isn't a whole lot defenseless workers can do to get their way in anything. So don't worry too much about it chijohnaok. I'm sure the workers will lose in the end. Will that make you happy?



Again, not one Washington Boeing union member losing his job.
South Carolinians getting new jobs.
Boeing happy because they new were able to add another location for a plant in a different region of the US.
Good in case the Boeing workers strike (which they did some years ago disrupting Boeing's production.
Also, if spreads the risk of having too many factories in one geographic location.
What happens if Mount Saint Helens goes boom (or some other calamity hits the area) and too many of your factories are close together?

The unions do have some leverage. They went on strike for nearly 2 months in 2008. The company already had a backlog of planes on order. It was the 4th strike by the union in 20 years.

The worker/production situation is a relationship. Everyone has to give and take some.

And back to the original thread post: the new council member in Seattle (IMHO) was a bit naive in wishing the Boeing factory workers to 'seize the plant and start building trains'.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:45 am 
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Maybe if the council member sided with management she would be less "naïve"?

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:08 am 
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Gary Childress wrote:
Maybe if the council member sided with management she would be less "naïve"?



Gary,

If the workers were to go out tomorrow and "seize the factory", what would that get them?

Would their wages continue?
Would they be producing planes or any other product?

Her campaign positions:

Quote:
Campaign Platform
Fund Human Needs, Not Corporate Greed

Raise the minimum wage to $15/hr.
A Millionaire’s Tax to fund mass transit, education, and living-wage union jobs providing vital social services.
End corporate welfare. Tax freeloading corporations. Reduce the unfair tax burden on small businesses, homeowners & workers.
Unionize Amazon, Starbucks & low-paid service workers.
No layoffs or attacks on public sector unions!
Environmental Sanity

Put the brakes on the coal trains! Words are not enough – the council needs to pass an ordinance & organize mass protests to make Seattle coal-free.
End the traffic disaster. Dramatically expand public transit & bikeways so cars aren’t necessary to meet day-to-day transit needs.
Affordable Housing

We need rent control!
End homelessness in Seattle. Fully fund services for the disabled, veterans, seniors, & families in crisis.
Fight Police Brutality & Racism

Build a mass movement against police brutality & racial profiling. Create an elected civilian review board with full powers over the police. No SPD drones.
The council should campaign for immediate, unconditional citizenship rights for all undocumented immigrants. Enact a moratorium on Seattle deportations.
Quality Public Schools

Stop defunding public schools. Lower class sizes. Support Seattle teachers & students boycotting the MAP standardized test.
Empower students, parents, and teachers to democratically develop culturally relevant curriculum. Expand anti-bullying efforts & curriculum promoting LGBTQ equality, anti-racism, and anti-sexism.




http://www.votesawant.org/issues

I wish her and the City of Seattle well.

Kshama Sawant is a a member of the Socialist Alternative party, the United States section of the British-based Trotskyist international organization the Committee for a Workers' International (CWI). She has referred to herself as a Marxist.

Perhaps her party can gain a majority and the mayorship in a future election and 'take back the city of Seattle'.

Then we see close up what a Socialist/Trotsyist/Marxist government can do.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:28 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
Maybe if the council member sided with management she would be less "naïve"?



Gary,

If the workers were to go out tomorrow and "seize the factory", what would that get them?

Would their wages continue?
Would they be producing planes or any other product?



I don't know what it would get the workers. Maybe they could make it work. I don't know, but at this stage if Boeing has its way they'll undercut the union and it's pretty obvious where that will eventually end up-with a much weaker union as you more or less point out in your prior post.

Her campaign platform sounds pretty good to me. They all sound like things we should all be trying to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:36 am 
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Why would anyone side with a bunch of millionaire executives who want to destroy the local economy by exporting middle class jobs to another state if they don't get their way? I guess it's just beyond my meager comprehension. If the workers did seize the factory I'm afraid I wouldn't be shedding any tears for Boeing.


Well, the ambiguity lies in the phrase "side with." Ultimately, while I am sympathetic to the idea that workers should get a good salary and reasonable retirement benefits, the property, tools, etc, belong to Boeing. Despite the fem's reasonable good looks, I can't agree with her agenda that says "take that which belongs to others." Illegal immigrants in Arizona ALL have fully embraced the idiotic cant that "social justice" permits them to steal anything that isn't bolted down.

Nor is it within reason to demand that Boeing not open factories in other states, nor to demand that Boeing must allow unions in every shop. We're not talking about the days when unions had a clear mission of foiling injustice: crappy unsafe working conditions, company stores, and hired guns are a thing of the distant past now. Eliminating the company pension for new workers is fair, just, appropriate, and reasonable, whether the CEO is a billionaire or not. Defined contribution plans are simply BETTER for both the employer and the employee.

The whole CEO/CFO/Board Compensation problem for publically owned Cos is a separate issue that needs to be addressed. Croneyism and excessive pay will be the death of capitalism, unless the Bird Flu Apocalypse or whatever does the deed first.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Wonder what she would do when her "millionaire's tax" drives all the millionaires to someplace more friendly and she dries up that tax and all the other tax revenue they contributed to Seattle. Stopping coal trains is great but does she have another source of electricity on hand to immediately replace it. Last I heard I don't think Seattle's weather is the ideal for solar power. Stop attacks on Unions? Does she mean literally or should free speech just catch one of the last empty coal trains leaving town?

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Coal is easy to replace:

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:14 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
Quote:
Why would anyone side with a bunch of millionaire executives who want to destroy the local economy by exporting middle class jobs to another state if they don't get their way? I guess it's just beyond my meager comprehension. If the workers did seize the factory I'm afraid I wouldn't be shedding any tears for Boeing.


Well, the ambiguity lies in the phrase "side with." Ultimately, while I am sympathetic to the idea that workers should get a good salary and reasonable retirement benefits, the property, tools, etc, belong to Boeing. Despite the fem's reasonable good looks, I can't agree with her agenda that says "take that which belongs to others." Illegal immigrants in Arizona ALL have fully embraced the idiotic cant that "social justice" permits them to steal anything that isn't bolted down.

Nor is it within reason to demand that Boeing not open factories in other states, nor to demand that Boeing must allow unions in every shop. We're not talking about the days when unions had a clear mission of foiling injustice: crappy unsafe working conditions, company stores, and hired guns are a thing of the distant past now. Eliminating the company pension for new workers is fair, just, appropriate, and reasonable, whether the CEO is a billionaire or not. Defined contribution plans are simply BETTER for both the employer and the employee.

The whole CEO/CFO/Board Compensation problem for publically owned Cos is a separate issue that needs to be addressed. Croneyism and excessive pay will be the death of capitalism, unless the Bird Flu Apocalypse or whatever does the deed first.


This. Just this. I was going to reply to what Gary said, but this says it far better than I can. Gary, you seem to be a fairly intelligent person, but you are the most massively naïve, unworldly person, that I have ever 'met'. Please do some reading on what has happened in other places where Ms Sawant's idea's have been implemented. Simply put, they do not work. They can't work, so long as human beings are what we are.

Regards,
Randy


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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Gary Childress wrote:
I don't know what it would get the workers. Maybe they could make it work.

Sure. They could find themselves a latter-day Stalin and execute not only a series of five-year plans, but a whole lot of counter-revolutionaries, as well.

You're so 19th century.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiots of the world unite!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Burl Smith wrote:
... Ms Sawant's idea's ...

Dude - you callin' this woman an idiot sawant?

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