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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:28 am 
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Have done a lot of searching since the first post and my answer to the question 'Did Mohammed exist?' is a firm yes! Many, many, many will disagree, but ...

Not because of the different sources that Muslims quote, rather because it's hard to visualize the Arabs charging out of Arabia and proceeding to conquer from Pakistan to Morocco without some unifying force to hold them together, otherwise IMHO it would have been a conquest, but most likely individual commanders would have done their own thing setting up independent kingdoms rather than submitting to the Caliph in Damascus.

As for Mohammed and the Koran, there was likely a major make over which would explain the inconsistencies in the life and words.

Was his name Mohammed ... most likely, but it doubtful he was the man now portrayed by Islam. Believe his present form is really a mixture of, bits of other peoples persona, and out right lies like George Washington and the apple tree.

Looks like the Koran was a mix of Judaism and Christianity as practiced in Arabia

That's my view, you can take it plus a nickle and not be able to buy a cup of coffee anywhere in the world.

That's it, wish more people had jumped in ... but having a go at Christianity is the thing to do. :roll: :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:37 am 
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abradley wrote:
EUBanana wrote:
I believe there are no referemces in the historical record of Jesus either, until some time after his death. Certainly the gospels came some time after.
:roll: Back to where we started ... what does that have to do with 'Why Invent Mohammed?'


Because there's nothing special about Mohammed vis a vis any other religious figure. Why invent religion would be a better question I guess...

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:01 am 
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abradley wrote:
Have done a lot of searching since the first post and my answer to the question 'Did Mohammed exist?' is a firm yes! Many, many, many will disagree, but ...

Not because of the different sources that Muslims quote, rather because it's hard to visualize the Arabs charging out of Arabia and proceeding to conquer from Pakistan to Morocco without some unifying force to hold them together, otherwise IMHO it would have been a conquest, but most likely individual commanders would have done their own thing setting up independent kingdoms rather than submitting to the Caliph in Damascus.

As for Mohammed and the Koran, there was likely a major make over which would explain the inconsistencies in the life and words.

Was his name Mohammed ... most likely, but it doubtful he was the man now portrayed by Islam. Believe his present form is really a mixture of, bits of other peoples persona, and out right lies like George Washington and the apple tree.

Looks like the Koran was a mix of Judaism and Christianity as practiced in Arabia

That's my view, you can take it plus a nickle and not be able to buy a cup of coffee anywhere in the world.

That's it, wish more people had jumped in ... but having a go at Christianity is the thing to do. :roll: :cry:

See that's the problem. No one is having a go at Christianity but asking a broader question in order to whittle it down to it's core. You yourself has said that the Koran was a mix of Judaism and Christianity as practiced in Arabia. In order to analyze Islam as a whole you have to examine it's parts. It's like trying to figure out Christianity without looking at Judaism. It's impossible because they are intertwined.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:40 am 
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EUBanana wrote:

Because there's nothing special about Mohammed vis a vis any other religious figure. Why invent religion would be a better question I guess...



;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:13 pm 
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Quote:

Tu Huan, an 8th century Chinese Islamophobe
Posted on March 10, 2014 by Baron Bodissey
http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/03/tu-hua ... lamophobe/

VaeVictis returns with a brief essay on Tu Huan (or Du Huan), a Chinese travel writer who lived in the 8th century. When consulting fragments of Tu Huan’s accounts about his travels among the Arabs, it’s interesting to note that although Islam is mentioned, Mohammed seems to be absent. This supports the thesis put forward by Norbert Pressburg (see two separate reviews) and Robert Spencer that Mohammed and the full Islamic religion were not invented until after the Arab conquests were largely complete.

[The Fra Mauro map (detail, inverted)]

Tu Huan, an 8th century Chinese Islamophobe
by VaeVictis


The book Seeing Islam as Others Saw It, by Robert Hoyland, is a massive compendium of sources and commentary on early Islam from the perspectives of non-Muslims of the time. The author does a commendable job gathering wide ranging sources from Latin, Persian, Greek, Arabic, Armenian and Hebrew tradition, consolidating them within a single volume. From this bounty of sources the reader routinely encounters descriptions of the violence and devastation that accompanied the early Muslim conquests and the suffering imposed on the conquered.

Considering how overwhelming the evidence from these diverse and culturally ‘rich’ sources are, it should be apparent to even the most jaded modern academic that Islam’s origins were unabashedly built on a foundation of violence. The sources are unanimous whether they be Christian, Jew or ‘fire worshipping’ Zoroastrians.[1] Yet I suspect this rather obvious conclusion will not soon be taught in the hallowed halls of Uppsala University.

Perhaps most interesting are a number of Chinese writings including entries from imperial court histories such as the Chiu T’ang shu (Old T’ang History) and the Hsin T’ang shu (New T’ang History). These histories in turn borrow passages from the writings of Tu Huan, a Chinese prisoner of war imprisoned for over a decade in Iraq after his capture in the Battle of Talas, which was fought between the Abbasid Caliphate and the T’ang Dynasty.[2] Tu Huan’s writings, like those of his fellow Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, reveal in uncensored terms the nature of Islam: ...
http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/03/tu-hua ... lamophobe/
The Battle of Talas decided the fate of central Asia ... Buddist or Muslim.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Well whether the man existed or not, he was clearly an asshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Quote:
http://vimeo.com/49439561

Channel 4 - Islam: The Untold Story (banned in the U.K.!)
from Sassan Irandoost 1 year ago Not Yet Rated

-Video-

In this ground-breaking film, historian Tom Holland explores how a new religion - Islam - emerged from the seedbed of the ancient world, and asks what we really know for certain about its rise. The result is an extraordinary detective story. Traditionally, Muslims and non-Muslims alike have believed that Islam was born in the full light of history. But a large number of historians now doubt that presumption, and question much of what Muslim tradition has to tell us about the birth of Islam


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:26 pm 
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And a review of Spencer’s 'Did Muhammad Exist? An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins' from 'The Catholic World Report'.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Well whether the man existed or not, he was clearly an asshole.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:12 am 
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