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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:20 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
I believe there are no referemces in the historical record of Jesus either, until some time after his death. Certainly the gospels came some time after.
:roll: Back to where we started ... what does that have to do with 'Why Invent Mohammed?'

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:22 pm 
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knuckles_95 wrote:
EUBanana wrote:
I believe there are no referemces in the historical record of Jesus either, until some time after his death. Certainly the gospels came some time after.

Not until about 70 AD by the historian Titus Flavius Josephus ;)
:roll: Are you a Muslim?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:28 pm 
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abradley wrote:
There are no references, Islamic or Non Islamic, to Mohammed until 70+/- years after his death.

Mohammed died in 632. The first written reference of Mohammed was in 634 in Didaskalia Jakobou or the Teaching of Jacob

Quote:
You cannot say the Koran and the Bible are the sameThe Korean is 'the word of God', everything in it is exactly as it was when God gave it to Mohammed. The Yemeni Koran

The Bible is man's writing and has many contradictions, even in the New Testament.

The Bible isn't the word of God? So it's possible that the bible could have gotten some things horribly wrong and we should seek God for ourselves? What a concept.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:29 pm 
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abradley wrote:
knuckles_95 wrote:
Not until about 70 AD by the historian Titus Flavius Josephus ;)
:roll: Are you a Muslim?

Nope a Christian since 1985 :)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:32 pm 
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abradley wrote:
:roll: Are you a Muslim?

Knucks wrote:
Nope a Christian since 1985 :)
Then why are you harping about Jesus on a thread named "Why Invent Mohammed?"

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:45 pm 
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abradley wrote:
abradley wrote:
:roll: Are you a Muslim?

Knucks wrote:
Nope a Christian since 1985 :)
Then why are you harping about Jesus on a thread named "Why Invent Mohammed?"

Because they are interconnected as is Abraham and Moses with them. They all stand on top of each other. The questions you ask about Mohammed can also be asked about Jesus. Christians are so quick to try to destroy others faith but are afraid to question their own. It's ok to ask questions and it's pk to say I don't know. Even John the Baptist questioned his faith when he was in prison and there were no one greater in faith in the NT than him other than Jesus.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:42 am 
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Quote:
There are no references, Islamic or Non Islamic, to Mohammed until 70+/- years after his death.


Let's use some common sense before using data.

Battles and campaigns are won by armies. I think we can agree on that! :lol:

Armies are led by leaders! I think we can agree on that too :lol:

Therefore, if we agree agree on these things, it is logical to conclude that most probably there was some charismatic leader who led the

Muslims in their rapid expansion during the 7th century.

A similar logic can apply to both Muslim and Christianity from a different perspective. There must had been somebody to start a new religious dogma It is illogical (since suddenly you seem eager to apply logic to religion) to expect that one day a community woke up and decided to follow a different religion.

About the evidence:

First, like in most cases, there is not a unanimous decision about the validity and credibility of the evidence. Some will always argue and give different explanation trying to undermine the historical significance of evidence.

Someone mentioned Tacitus, but Tacitus also mentions Hercules when he talks about the Germans, and then the debate goes deeper examining if he, as a historian, gives a historical fact, or a legend associated with the identity of the people he mentions in his writings.

My common sense tells me that both Jesus and Mohamed were historical figures, but of course, their nature could have been totally different from what the Quran or the New Testament wants us to believe.

Anyway, a brief google search gave me this as a historical proof coming from non-Muslim sources for Mohamed's existence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebeos

Quote:
Sebeos (Armenian: Սեբեոս) was a 7th century Armenian bishop and historian.
The history of Sebeos contains detailed descriptions from the period of Sassanid supremacy in Armenia up to the Islamic conquest in 661. Sebeos' work was published for the first time in 1851 in Constantinople. The history recorded by Sebeos provides a illustration of the history of Armenian people, from the start where he was a witness to the year 661.[read carefully-it was published in 1851 but the work was written in 661 AD]
..........
Twelve peoples representing all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Persian troops had departed leaving the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When the Jews realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and Heraclius ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael.

The Jews called the Arabs to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Old Testament. Although the Arabs were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God’s command, was revealed to them, and Muhammad taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history.

Because the command had come from on High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father–Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said: “God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when God loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you”.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:59 pm 
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pamak wrote:
{Snip}
Great! Finally there is someone willing to post about Mohammed's existence, the Sebeos quote is interesting and may prove to verify there was a historical Mohammed ... but there is some question about whether it's authentic and/or if the Mohammed is the Islamic Mohammed:
Quote:
Did Muhammad Really Exist?
Examining the Evidence

Written by Taylor Carr - January 3, 2009
http://www.godlesshaven.com/articles/mu ... dence.html
{Snip}
The second source is one attributed to the Armenian Bishop Sebeos. A History of Heraclius is a document purportedly written about 660 AD, but its connection to Sebeos is greatly disputed [7]. Nonetheless, this source does invoke Muhammad by name, and it makes several comments regarding Islamic teachings such as prohibition of carrion, wine and adultery. Although authorship of the text seems unknown and makes it somewhat difficult to verify, this does appear to reference Muhammad as a historical person. There is one inconsistency in the History though:
Quote:
"Twelve peoples representing all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Persian troops had departed leaving the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When the Jews realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and Heraclius ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. The Jews called the Arabs to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Old Testament."
While the Qur'an states that Muhammad severed his ties with Jews by 624 AD (Sura 2:144, 149-150), when he moved the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Mecca, this text apparently suggests that Muslims and Jews were still allies as late as 640 AD, during the conquest of Palestine. As I said previously in the article, it may well be that a man named Muhammad did actually exist, and these texts do give some weight to such a possibility. On the other hand, they do not seem to contradict my suggestion either, that the historical Muhammad may not have been the same one that we hear of in the Qur'an or Islamic traditions.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:10 pm 
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knuckles_95 wrote:
{Snip}
Because they are interconnected as is Abraham and Moses with them. They all stand on top of each other. The questions you ask about Mohammed can also be asked about Jesus. Christians are so quick to try to destroy others faith but are afraid to question their own. It's ok to ask questions and it's pk to say I don't know. Even John the Baptist questioned his faith when he was in prison and there were no one greater in faith in the NT than him other than Jesus.
Nonsense.

As you see Pamak has replied to the initial post and Christians are always questioning. It's natura,l "Even John the Baptist questioned his faith ..."

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 Post subject: Re: Why Invent Mohammed?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:40 pm 
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abradley wrote:
knuckles_95 wrote:
{Snip}
Because they are interconnected as is Abraham and Moses with them. They all stand on top of each other. The questions you ask about Mohammed can also be asked about Jesus. Christians are so quick to try to destroy others faith but are afraid to question their own. It's ok to ask questions and it's pk to say I don't know. Even John the Baptist questioned his faith when he was in prison and there were no one greater in faith in the NT than him other than Jesus.
Nonsense.

As you see Pamak has replied to the initial post and Christians are always questioning. It's natura,l "Even John the Baptist questioned his faith ..."

In what way is it nonsense? If you would have actually read my posts you would see I brought up mohammed existing several times.


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