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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:37 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
Not to be an "Axis fanboi", but maybe the problem was less the tank and more the crews driving them.


IIRC Trevor Dupuy reseraching the Germans found that they would inflict losses at a faster rate on all opponents during WWII regardless of circumstances - both early war and late war, if they had numbers on their side or not, air superiority or not etc. Highly competent on a tactical level. Robert Forczyk argues that the allied armies that beat the Germans in Normandy 1944 basically fought like the French in 1940 - methodical battle - the difference being the Americans had the resources to do it, while the French didn't.

The IDF was created post-WWII with no "victory baggage" and is sometimes said to be the armed force that made the best use of the German lessons of WWII. If true - Zahal; the Axis Fanobois... :D

I guess that that Monty had the resources to take Caen, but it was difficult. As wulfie points out.

As for Finns against Soviets. With 9-1 superiority Soviets break through, with 6-1 Finns delay, 3-1 the line is stabilized with heavy losses to soviets.

With force ratio 1-1 Finns go through in the center and have envelopment on the both sides in the Battle of Ilomantsi.


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Been back at my modded "Silent Hunter 4" after a good 2 years of not playing it. Fun game, though unfortunately it goes from: Ridiculously Easy ("Easy"); to Very Easy ("Normal"); to "Quite Challenging But Still Pretty Easy" ("Hard"); to Annoyingly Tedious in the Guise of being Difficult ("Realistic").

The reason for this is: Ubisoft apparently couldn't be bothered to write some code to run a few archetypical fire control crew scripts and then provide those (with some random variables moderated by NPC skill) so the "Realistic" is not realistic at all. It just basically forces the player to do the work of 12 or 15 crewman via the game interface, which is impossible without copious, immersion breaking use of the pause key. Ah well, a fun game, and the remarkable thing about it is how well it manages to model THE ENTIRE Pacific in what is effectively a ship-to-ship combat game. It almost conveys the illusion of being a first-person format game, but all the first person scenes are just 3-D eye-candy.

Anyway . . . I like to start the war in an S-class submarine (this is using a small but very potent cocktail of mods that goes by a long string of acronyms, which I can tell you if you like . . .). The boat you start in if you choose Asiatic Fleet and an S-class (in my modded campaign) is S-40. Clicking a couple links, I found out that S-40 had a fairly mundane war career, but did survive the whole war (which is probably why that is the boat they chose for the player if the player starts in an S-class).

That led me to this next page, which is an interesting read on a the Fleet Problem Fleet Problem III held in 1924

Quote:
From the Archives - Ensign Hederman Blocks up the Panama Canal

Between 1923 and 1940 the U.S. Navy carried out 21 major exercises called "fleet problems." These involved virtually the entire disposable force of the fleet, and sprawled across literally hundreds of thousands of square miles. What were perhaps the most realistic maneuvers ever engaged in by the Navy, the fleet problems helped train the generation of officers who won World War II – Ernest J. King, Thomas Hart, William Halsey, to name but a few – while introducing the fleet to new technologies and tactics, including aircraft carriers, underway refueling, amphibious operations, and more.

Fleet Problem Fleet Problem III, one of three held in 1924, had Blue defending the Panama Canal from an attack in the Caribbean by Black, operating from an advanced base in the Azores. The object was to test the defenses of the Canal Zone on the Caribbean side, to practice amphibious techniques, and to study the ability of the fleet to transit rapidly from the Pacific to the Caribbean.

In the course of the exercise, Black engaged in a number of highly creative "special operations," most notably one conducted by Ens. T.H. Hederman, a 1923 graduate of the Naval Academy (a classmate of the great Arleigh Burke), as told in his official report.

UNITED STATES FLEET
The Scouting Fleet
U.S.S. Wyoming, Flagship

Colon, P.R.
13 January, I924.

From: Ensign T. H. Hederman, U. S. Navy
To: Lieutenant Hamilton Bryan, U.S. Navy, Fleet Intelligence Officer.

Subject: Operations as a spy in Canal Zone, report on.

1. In compliance with Commander SCOUTING FLEET’s order I left the U.S.S. Wyoming on l5 January 1324, proceeded to the U.S.. Richmond, and hoisted on board a sloop, 15 feet overall, 6 foot beam, the property of a native of Bocas del Toro, who was also present. The Richmond proceeded to a point 20 miles northeast of Toro Point Light where we took off, reaching Colon at 1000, 16 January, 1924.

2. At the Hotel Astor I shifted into the uniform of an enlisted man carrying my officer's uniform with me. I then proceeded to Miraflores Locks and received information concerning the passage of ships through the canal.

3. The first battleship to go though was the U.S.S. California at 1600. In devising a scheme to board her, I found it very impracticable due to the possibility of recognition by my classmates on deck at the time. Therefore I waited for the second battleship in line which was the U.S.S. New York. As she lay in the lower lift of the Miraflores Locks I threw my package containing the officer’s uniform on deck, proving that the conveyance of any package on board was possible. I then climbed hand over hand to the main deck up a fender line.

4. I remained on board over night in the capacity of an enlisted man. On 1? January 1924 at 0840, I shifted into may officer's uniform in a trunk outside of No. 3 Handling Room. I then sent for the Magazine Gunner's Mate. At 0810 the Ordnance Gunner appeared and upon my informing him that I was making a Fleet inspection of powder, he opened up a magazine (G-35P) and also a can of powder. In my left hard I carried the wrapping paper concealed in my handkerchief which might have been a detonator charge. At this time the ship was approaching Culebra Cut and a five minute fuse would have exploded the charge as the ship passed through the Cut.

5. I then reported my act to the Commander of Battleship Division Three who made me a prisoner of war under sentry's charge and to be treated as such.

6. I was released from strict confinement, at 1100, 18 January 1924, and given parole aboard the ship. I was released as a prisoner of war at 1000, 19 January, 1924.

T. H. Hederman.

The official adjudication of the exercise determined that Ens. Hederman’s little adventures had led to the destruction of the battleship New York, leaving her sunken hulk to block the Culebra Cut, and thus rendering the canal useless.

The resourceful Hederman went on to greater things. A lieutenant commander with his own destroyer at the outbreak of World War II, he later commanded a destroyer squadron in the Third/Fifth Fleet, rose to rear admiral after the war and retired in 1953. He died in 1960. His equally innovative boss, Lt. Bryan (USNA, 1913), had a less splendid career; retired for reasons of health in 1941, he died in 1944.


Pretty neat!

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:09 pm 
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nero wrote:
As for Finns against Soviets. With 9-1 superiority Soviets break through...


Got any good sources on Valkeasaari 1944? I'm interested in the positions of JR1 just before the Soviet main attack - esp. interested in maps...

I build scenarios for some old school wargames...


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:50 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
As for Finns against Soviets. With 9-1 superiority Soviets break through...


Got any good sources on Valkeasaari 1944? I'm interested in the positions of JR1 just before the Soviet main attack - esp. interested in maps...

I build scenarios for some old school wargames...

I will help you. To coordinate things. send me a PM for more details. Especially tell what you have, what you miss and what level of detail you want. And about these old school war games too. ;)

I guess that you can google as well as I can, but then I have the language advantage. And I definitely need a project other than just to find funny things about Trump. ;)

Just noticed that there a lot of war diaries available National Archive, in Finnish though. Perhaps I can find more detailed maps too.

And then there is a real treasure trove Kansa Taisteli magazine that was published from 1958 to 1986 now available in PDF form.

Image

I will help.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:10 pm 
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nero wrote:
Especially tell what you have, what you miss and what level of detail you want.


I have Ilja Mosjtjanski's modern Russian propaganda BS "Karelian Ishtmus 1944"/Schturm "karelskogo valla". It has details on the Soviet forces but is not very reliable. Simo Liikanen's "Finnish Sisu, Soviet Steel"/Panssarinmurskaajat. Panssarintorjunta talvi - ja jatkosodassa has some bits on the AT defences at Valkeasaari. I also have the Lupander brothers book on the Isthmus offensive 1944 which gives a broad overview of the battle.

My understanding is that JR1 was "blamed" for the Soviet breakthrough and there has been efforts at revising that view. The ground was sandy and not particulary good defensive terrain. The so called "million bunker" was a Russian mix up (intentional or not, for propaganda purposes) with a famous winter war bunker and was in reality a captured Soviet thing. Few, if any, other concrete structures were present in the area...


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:38 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
Especially tell what you have, what you miss and what level of detail you want.


I have Ilja Mosjtjanski's modern Russian propaganda BS "Karelian Ishtmus 1944"/Schturm "karelskogo valla". It has details on the Soviet forces but is not very reliable. Simo Liikanen's "Finnish Sisu, Soviet Steel"/Panssarinmurskaajat. Panssarintorjunta talvi - ja jatkosodassa has some bits on the AT defences at Valkeasaari. I also have the Lupander brothers book on the Isthmus offensive 1944 which gives a broad overview of the battle.

My understanding is that JR1 was "blamed" for the Soviet breakthrough and there has been efforts at revising that view. The ground was sandy and not particulary good defensive terrain. The so called "million bunker" was a Russian mix up (intentional or not, for propaganda purposes) with a famous winter war bunker and was in reality a captured Soviet thing. Few, if any, other concrete structures were present in the area...

OK, now I know what you know.

I remember seeing more detailed sketches on the Finnish defenses, the AT-gun positions and such. I remember seeing maps and numbers, but was it in books or internets?

You have a language problem, there are a lot of Youtube material on the topic, but in Finnish only.



As for blaming JR 1, there no such any more if ever. If one sees the numbers, one does not blame.

But I just have question the playability of a scenario of Valkeasaari, only mdiehl would like it when playing Soviets. :roll:

I think there is better scenes for a war game scenarios than Valkeasaari. But lets do this exercise first. ;)

En gång, alltid.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:37 pm 
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nero wrote:
I think there is better scenes for a war game scenarios than Valkeasaari.


Could be, but Valeasaari is the start of the offensive, so..., I'm thinking I'll get to Portinhoikka soon enough.

These games has a Korea scenario based on the Glosters at the Imjin river, where the commies do not stop coming... :shock:

I want to experiment with timed objectives where the defender can hope to score a win by delaing the breakthrough long enough...

By using realistic forces there is no way JR1 will block the Russians alone.

https://www.sotapolku.fi/sotapolut/jalkavkirykmentti-1/jalkavkirykmentti-1-rintamavastuussa-valkeasaaren-lohkolla-jalkavkirykmentti-1--808797600/?person=629122


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:21 pm 
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wulfir wrote:

A good link. Thanks.

I look for maps and other data for you. Sure.

But first I guess that there is a lot of material på svenska också. I try find the easy things, the low hanging fruits first.

And I understand that you are making a campaign, a series of battles. That is cool. ;)

Hey, I will help you. Just because I am in it too. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:02 pm 
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nero wrote:
But first I guess that there is a lot of material på svenska också.


Sure - but more general stuff; Winter War, Lapland War, various battles - not so much unit histories (regiment/division) - the big exception being 17. Division, for obvious reasons. The book on the Assault Gun Battalion was translated to Swedish though... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:48 am 
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In the fall of 1960 Einar Lyth, as a Swedish infantry lieutenant, was invited to attend a field exercise in the newly established Bundeswehr. This exercise took place in Bayern and was focused on a newly established infantry division delaying against Soviet tank divisions – especially how a battalion fought within the frame of a brigade. New organization and fifteen year old war experiences were to be fused into something useful.
The German officers at this exercise were recently ”reactivated”. When about 25 years old they had been officers in the Wehrmacht. Now they were in their 40s and were company commanders in the Bundswehr. Lyth was the same age they had been back in WW2 and his assignment in case of war was as a rifle company commander (Swedish army). He had studied war for years but had no experience with real combat. The Germans he met at this exercise had, and you could tell just by looking at them as many had visible injuries; one lacked an ear, one lacked the left hand, several had suffered burn wounds.
Lyth noticed that the Germans read the map different. In Sweden the viewpoint was basically that the landscape was read as open areas and pathways in wide forests. Treelines were important. Bogs and lakes limited mobility. The Germans were more interested in height differences. They read hilltops as Swedes read tree lines. In the desert, in Russia, in France they had learned to seek protection in the low ground and watch out for the higher terrain. One would advance in the low ground. In defence there was forward observers and scouts up on the heights and main positions on the reverse slopes. When the enemy artillery got going the Germans would withdraw and return when the fire slackened. As soon as the enemy had taken important ground a counter attack was mounted. As soon as the counter attack had succeed the counter attack force was withdrawn and kept ready to counterattack again.

There was a tactical pattern – while the variations between Russia, France, the desert etc were great – the tactics were all based on the ability to read height differences on a map.
There was another war experience that someone defined as; ”troops feel bad if they can see further than their weapons can reach.”

Troops should be deployed so that their field of vision limited them to seeing the enemy point troops, but not all those that followed the leading forces - this to enable a focus of effort on what the soldier themselves could influence (not in order to “deceive” the troops of the volumes of enemies or somesuch).

After the exercise Lyth was taken aside and asked his opinion. He responded that surely the access of so many war experienced officers was an asset.

The German officer in charge of the exercise – Meyer - cautioned Lyth about overestimating the value of their experience, in fact it was also a liability of sorts. The officers Lyth met, Meyer claimed, were the few survivors. The others were all dead. For the rest of their lives these the survivors will try to figure out how it was they made it out alive when so many others died. And because nobody wants to believe in chance only, the explanation must be the combat method they used.

They are then so to speak stuck in that method – which they think saved the lives of themselves and some of their soldiers. Whenever given a (theoretical) tactical problem they return to the place where so many others fell - ”Afrikakorps unter Rommel”, ”Russlandfeldzug”, ”mit von Manstein auf Krim”, ”mit Dietl auf Kola”, ”vor Berlin” - but they themselves did live. All these officers, according to Meyer, were said to be so heavily influenced by the experiences and circumstances on those occasions where they were in the most trouble but lived. It was impossible for them to take in new ideas or as tacticians think creatively.


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