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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Germany,
Germany,
Germany, etc.


Early on the Germans had better tactics and more of the good fighters (not every British plane was a Spitfire, virtually all German fighers were Me 109/110). German pilots could accumulate experience and when the war in the east started the Russians were quickly forced to send up poorly trained pilots to face them. Later in the war the Germans were usually heavily outnumbered when attacking the allied bomber streams, but in the east the front was much longer and air formations jumped around the front unlike in the west. The Russians focused their effort in a zone about 10 km on either side of the front line, and did not attack in depth as much. When air units in the East clashed the Germans were seldom as heavily outnumbered as in the west.

The German pilot confidence in themselves and their equipment remained surprisingly good throughout the war.

Some German pilots flew up to around 1000 combat missions. The flew on instict. Their opponents had much less experience. One German pilot said:
"We learned to immediately spot who the newbies were in an enemy formation. We always started with plucking those..."


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:00 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
Germany,
Germany,
Germany, etc.


Early on the Germans had better tactics and more of the good fighters (not every British plane was a Spitfire, virtually all German fighers were Me 109/110). German pilots could accumulate experience and when the war in the east started the Russians were quickly forced to send up poorly trained pilots to face them. Later in the war the Germans were usually heavily outnumbered when attacking the allied bomber streams, but in the east the front was much longer and air formations jumped around the front unlike in the west. The Russians focused their effort in a zone about 10 km on either side of the front line, and did not attack in depth as much. When air units in the East clashed the Germans were seldom as heavily outnumbered as in the west.

The German pilot confidence in themselves and their equipment remained surprisingly good throughout the war.

Some German pilots flew up to around 1000 combat missions. The flew on instict. Their opponents had much less experience. One German pilot said:
"We learned to immediately spot who the newbies were in an enemy formation. We always started with plucking those..."


Yup, additionally, Germany and Japan were in war much earlier than most other countries.
Additionally, I think both these countries tended to fly their pilots until they were dead or permanently incapacitated. Its my understanding that the US (at some point) implemented a rotation policy for air crews.

I found this document which indicates that starting in July 1942, The US Army Air Corps called for a rotation out of front line service after one year.
http://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/docu ... 151431-133

That was not apparently applied universally though as some theaters of battle received more replacement pilots than others, meaning that commanders could not return some overworked pilots/flight crews until they actually had their replacements.


To Anthro's observation-----those Aces with the most kills were likely those who flew the most missions.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:15 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
...Japan were...


The Japs had some very well trained pilots at the start.


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
...Japan were...


The Japs had some very well trained pilots at the start.


Yes, Japan had been at war (against China) since 1937, so at the point that they attacked the US/Allies in 1941, they certainly had an experience core of pilots.
I'm not sure how much dogfighting experience that Japanese pilots accrued against the Chinese, but they certainly had flight hours built up.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:56 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Yup, additionally, Germany and Japan were in war much earlier than most other countries.
Additionally, I think both these countries tended to fly their pilots until they were dead or permanently incapacitated. Its my understanding that the US (at some point) implemented a rotation policy for air crews.

I found this document which indicates that starting in July 1942, The US Army Air Corps called for a rotation out of front line service after one year.
http://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/docu ... 151431-133

That was not apparently applied universally though as some theaters of battle received more replacement pilots than others, meaning that commanders could not return some overworked pilots/flight crews until they actually had their replacements.


To Anthro's observation-----those Aces with the most kills were likely those who flew the most missions.


Guys like Marseille got shot down ... how many times? Before learning how to fight the enemy. In his early days he didn't have the hang of it - he was your typical would-be-ace. Early on in the training he demonstrated outstanding handling of his fighter but when sent against experienced British pilots he kept being shot down to the extent that iirc. his friends were joking that he should be regarded as an Allies' ace!

Then he got the hang of it and mastered his tactics and became incredibly effective.

What is also surprising that there were many pilots who started the war and ended it without reaching anything remarkable or out of the ordinary. Ace begins with 5 victories so indeed iirc. majority of the long term veteran pilots ended up as aces though there were many that didn't manage to get very many victories.

Aerial combat was very difficult and dangerous and many if not most surviving pilots emphasized survival over chase - because if you didn't even a rookie could shoot you down when you were too focused on a single target that could lead you on purpose in front of his wingman for a lined up clear shot. How many experienced and skilled pilots were lost like this against 'lesser' foes over such folly?

In the air skill didn't make people invulnerable and everyone was trying their best to master the art of dogfight. Even average pilots could often put up a good fight against the aces.

I've read several accounts where the aces can tell immediately if they're facing an enemy ace. They can see how an enemy suddenly behaves very differently - superior - to the regular foes they usually faced. Often ace versus ace ended up with circumstances forcing both to disengage. Above all aces didn't do crazy stuff that ensured swift death - such as pulling up and exposing themselves as a near stationary target with bullets ripping through the canopy.

It was not unlike sports - you had your aces that scored most of the victories but they too required a team to keep the enemy from swarming them. There was such a thing as "amazing wingman" and the wingman term still lives to this day in much it's original meaning - the guy who may not be the best at downing the enemy aircraft but he'll serve you up with plenty of opportunities so you can focus on your targets.

Many air victories were actually lost when the wingmen started to compete for the kill. I've read of several accounts where 1 vs. 10+ the lone guy survived because the enemies were competing among themselves - just as you're lined up for the shot someone bumps in front of you or you have to dodge a wingman who doesn't see you etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:24 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
...but they certainly had flight hours built up.


They were not too shabby with a mediocre plane like the Zero. Saw it compared it to the Fokker D. XXI - used by for example the Finnish Air Force - claiming the Zero was about the same performance-wise...


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:59 pm 
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and


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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:16 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Military stuff ... past and present.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Song from when during the era of my great grandfather Finns served as Finnish Guard in the Russian Empire, fighting the Turks and other enemies of the empire far from home.

Damn those folks had to march far and wide.

The song is composed as a 'homecoming march' for the Finnish Guard. English lyrics on the video.

Quote:
Angel Naidenov

After the suppression of Bulgarian April Uprising in 1876 nearly 100,000 were put to death, men, women, children... A year later many came to fight for those who can not protect themselves, and to help those who need help. What is known as Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878). And the Finns were among them. The Finnish Guards' Rifle Battalion, of nearly 1000.
They distinguished themselves in the battle of Gorni Dubnjak, when the Finns were the ones, who finally get over the walls of the fort. Gorni Dubnjak were a fortified stronghold, ensuring supply route for besieged Turkish army of 70000 strong at Pleven. So it was vital to take it, and finish the encirclement.

Thank you Finns, for participating in that war, we have not forgot those days. Warm greetings from Bulgaria.


Check the comments section. Bulgarians remember.

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