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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:55 pm 
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No idea about anything said already. But it is pretty striking that a religion in which "God" is portrayed as (a) a single dude (instead of a pantheon of dudes and dudettes); (b) who "LOVES" people, came along when it did, and despite being regarded as ridiculous heresy by every well-established religious and political group in the Mediterranean at the time, managed to not only SURVIVE (as did Judaism and quite a few other older religions . . . at least for a time) but THRIVE, expand, and eventually TAKE OVER the pagan Empire which had previously been its primary oppressor!

Tells me there is something more appealing in Christianity than in any of the other flavors it was competing with at the time.

Certainly hard to imagine the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment and rise of secular humanism and contemporary science in a Judaic, Islamic or pagan framework. Arguably couldn't have happened within a strictly Catholic framework either . . . Seems that, in many respects, Christianity became that which it was originally formed to fight against, but then the reformation fixed that by some degree . . . subsequent "secular" and semi-secular movements and developments have furthered that "progress" which the Jesus cult originally set in motion.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:08 pm 
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And
About 35:00 he describes ancient religions.

Baylor ISR
Published on Jun 17, 2014
Neglect and Dedication: The Dynamics of Ancient Religious Markets Par 1 of 4 - The Market Approach to Understanding Religion

and "The Triumph of Christianity: How the Jesus Movement Became the World's Largest Religion Paperback – November 6, 2012
by Rodney Stark (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Christia ... 47VCSD0FMQ

Have read this book, it and the Ehrman book addresses you questions.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:10 pm 
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The above post is a mess, the info is in there but needs digging.

I'll try to explain how the Christians went from 20 people to 20 million(?) in 300 years.

Prior to Christianity civilization was brutal, most if not all was based on male domination, in quite a few societies the father/husband had life and death control over the family. This includes Roman.

At the time of Jesus Rome was having a population decline problem, on top of that they often put female babies out to die in the elements, Christians would collect these babies and raise them as Christians. Like China today Rome didn't have enough pagan females for their male population so they married the surplus Christian gals, you won't believe this but those gals subverted Roman Paganism from within.

On top of that, when a plague struck the Romans deserted the sick, the Christians cared for the sick, a la Jesus' good Samaritan. This added more converts and their families.

A Pagan woman was inferior to the male, not the case for Christians, all humans were equal.

Basically the Christians had the woman vote.

There's a lot more to it then this but IMHO this is a big part.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Most of the corruption is of course in the old testament.



FF 15 minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:21 pm 
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nero wrote:
Most of the corruption is of course in the old testament.

[youtube].....[/youtube]

FF 15 minutes.
Took me a while but I finally finished it.

First; what's it saying about Judaism and one God? IMO it's saying what is common sense, Judaism and it's one all power God takes control and sez 'get rid of your useless house gods, we've got the one true God here in the temple' the Jews had won the battles so their God must be all powerful. So, what to do, you remember that time your wife was near death and you sacrificed to **** then she got well, so your god has power but not as powerful as God. So you hedge your bet and keep both. A lot of that took place when Christianity became the religion.

As for God's wife; IIRC Calvin said something like. 'God speaks to us in language we can understand.' Like for instance the early men were hungry to know how it all started, what did God give them, a library full of astronomy tomes or a simple explanation of '7 day creation.' Why God's wife?' , most men need a wife, God would also to handle all the wifely duties. If God had just created men, no women, and men birthed the children, then nourished plus raised them it would be a too much in early mans eyes. So God created women to share the task by making men and women complimentary. Early man figured God would need a woman just like them.

Simple, yes.

PS
Why the Old Testament?

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:01 am 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
Most of the corruption is of course in the old testament.

[youtube].....[/youtube]

FF 15 minutes.
Took me a while but I finally finished it.

First; what's it saying about Judaism and one God? IMO it's saying what is common sense, Judaism and it's one all power God takes control and sez 'get rid of your useless house gods, we've got the one true God here in the temple' the Jews had won the battles so their God must be all powerful. So, what to do, you remember that time your wife was near death and you sacrificed to **** then she got well, so your god has power but not as powerful as God. So you hedge your bet and keep both. A lot of that took place when Christianity became the religion.

As for God's wife; IIRC Calvin said something like. 'God speaks to us in language we can understand.' Like for instance the early men were hungry to know how it all started, what did God give them, a library full of astronomy tomes or a simple explanation of '7 day creation.' Why God's wife?' , most men need a wife, God would also to handle all the wifely duties. If God had just created men, no women, and men birthed the children, then nourished plus raised them it would be a too much in early mans eyes. So God created women to share the task by making men and women complimentary. Early man figured God would need a woman just like them.

Simple, yes.

PS
Why the Old Testament?

The old testament stories have changed and evolved more. ;)

And when we are on it, I have been curious about the the incidence when Adam and Eve were expelled from the paradise, they met other people. Were the Adam's and Eve's offspring that were expelled earlier or who were them? :roll:

Can you explain this riddle?

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:30 am 
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nero wrote:
{Snip}
The old testament stories have changed and evolved more. ;)

And when we are on it, I have been curious about the the incidence when Adam and Eve were expelled from the paradise, they met other people. Were the Adam's and Eve's offspring that were expelled earlier or who were them? :roll:

Can you explain this riddle?
Am a catholic, the bible isn't necessarily history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVsbVAVSssc

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:03 am 
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abradley wrote:
nero wrote:
{Snip}
The old testament stories have changed and evolved more. ;)

And when we are on it, I have been curious about the the incidence when Adam and Eve were expelled from the paradise, they met other people. Were the Adam's and Eve's offspring that were expelled earlier or who were them? :roll:

Can you explain this riddle?
Am a catholic, the bible isn't necessarily history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVsbVAVSssc

Fr. Barron is right, bible is not history and true. The origin of genesis goes to ancient Sumer 4000BC the time of An, Enlil, Ninhursag, and Enk.

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:38 am 
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So far the discussion has been on the Protestant bible and am happy to see the enthusiasm for finding new stuff and verifying it.

To my knowledge there has not been anything that refutes the Catholic bible.
Quote:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/histo ... erent.html
Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?
To find the answer, we must look to the Councils of Jamnia...
Elesha Coffman
Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?
Image: Magdalena Kucova/Shutterstock
Current Issue
July/August 2018
Subscribe
July/August

Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?

The Protestant Bible, of which the NIV is one version, is seven books shorter than the Bible used by Roman Catholics. But Protestants didn't just take out books; they used a different standard of what should be in the Bible.

The Hebrew Bible has 24 books. This list, or "canon," was affirmed at the Councils of Jamnia in A.D. 90 and 118. The Protestant Old Testament includes exactly the same information, but organized into 39 books. For example, the Hebrew Bible has one book of Samuel, while the Protestant Bible has I and II Samuel—same book, but divided into two parts.

In addition to these 39 books, the Catholic Old Testament includes Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Baruch (includes the Letters of Jeremiah), I and II Maccabees, and additions to Daniel and Esther. These books were included in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of a different Hebrew canon. Early church fathers, who relied on the Septuagint (they could read Greek, but not Hebrew), sometimes quoted these books as Scripture. The status of the books continued to be debated throughout the Middle Ages.

At the time of the Reformation, Protestants decided that, because the additional books weren't in the Hebrew Bible, they shouldn't be in the Christian Bible, either (though they were included in early editions of the King James Bible). Catholics, at the Council of Trent (1546), decided to keep the "deutero-canonical" books.

Incidentally, Protestants and Catholics use the same New Testament, the content of which was defined by Athanasius in 367.

For more on this topic, see Christian History Issue 43: How We Got Our Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: How Badly Has the Bible Been Corrupted?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:19 pm 
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abradley wrote:


So far the discussion has been on the Protestant bible and am happy to see the enthusiasm for finding new stuff and verifying it.

To my knowledge there has not been anything that refutes the Catholic bible.
Quote:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/histo ... erent.html
Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?
To find the answer, we must look to the Councils of Jamnia...
Elesha Coffman
Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?
Image: Magdalena Kucova/Shutterstock
Current Issue
July/August 2018
Subscribe
July/August

Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different?

The Protestant Bible, of which the NIV is one version, is seven books shorter than the Bible used by Roman Catholics. But Protestants didn't just take out books; they used a different standard of what should be in the Bible.

The Hebrew Bible has 24 books. This list, or "canon," was affirmed at the Councils of Jamnia in A.D. 90 and 118. The Protestant Old Testament includes exactly the same information, but organized into 39 books. For example, the Hebrew Bible has one book of Samuel, while the Protestant Bible has I and II Samuel—same book, but divided into two parts.

In addition to these 39 books, the Catholic Old Testament includes Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Baruch (includes the Letters of Jeremiah), I and II Maccabees, and additions to Daniel and Esther. These books were included in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of a different Hebrew canon. Early church fathers, who relied on the Septuagint (they could read Greek, but not Hebrew), sometimes quoted these books as Scripture. The status of the books continued to be debated throughout the Middle Ages.

At the time of the Reformation, Protestants decided that, because the additional books weren't in the Hebrew Bible, they shouldn't be in the Christian Bible, either (though they were included in early editions of the King James Bible). Catholics, at the Council of Trent (1546), decided to keep the "deutero-canonical" books.

Incidentally, Protestants and Catholics use the same New Testament, the content of which was defined by Athanasius in 367.

For more on this topic, see Christian History Issue 43: How We Got Our Bible.

Perhaps the Adamites can be seen as corrupted, or then the other way around.

There was a time I was tempted, in Bohemia, near Tabor. ;)

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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